Titus Turambar: Tragic Tales

[Inziladun]

First off, I confess to not being familiar with the Peake work, so I cannot speak of the parallels between that story and Túrin's.
Túrin had the will of a hateful divine being working against him, but in the end, it was his personal shortcomings that did him in.
The will of Morgoth may have entered into Menegroth, working through Saeros to drive Túrin out, but it was Túrin's pride that did not allow him to return there when told he had been pardoned in the death of Saeros and would be welcomed back in honour.
In Nargothrond, his pride and love of valour in arms led him to have the bridge over the Narog built, ultimately leading to the fall of Nargothrond and the death of Finduilas.
It was the latter, I think, that was really the nail in the coffin, so to speak. If Finduilas had not been captured, or if Túrin had been able to save her, he would have saved himself. He was told as much by the dying Gwindor.

Haste thee to Nargothrond, and save Finduilas. And this last I say to thee: she alone stands between thee and thy doom. If thou fail her, it shall not fail to find thee.

Silm Of Túrin Turambar

I think the grave of Finduilas, Haudh-en-Elleth, figured into his acceptance and ultimate love of Níniel.

Haudh-en-Elleth! From the green mound she came! Is that a sign, and how shall I read it?

UT Narn I Hîn Húrin

So it seems to me he was lost after Finduilas died, and unable to escape his doom.
Morgoth may have led Túrin to a path of destruction, but it was Túrin who chose to follow it.

[Mnemosyne]

Excellent thread, Hookbill!

A little contrived? Perhaps. But I'd like to hear other thoughts on what exactly is the nature of the tragedy of Turin. What, do you think, is the most striking element of his downfall?

For me I think the most fascinating thing behind Turin is that you can't be entirely sure how much of the tragedy has to do with what he is (Hurin's son) or who he is (generally speaking, a jerk). We know, objectively, that the entire family's been cursed, but there's nothing that really points to that fact in Turin's life. Almost all the bad things that happen to him are a direct consequence of his choices. So we're never sure if there was a possibility he could have outrun the curse or not...

Mmm, ambiguity.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

For me I think the most fascinating thing behind Turin is that you can't be entirely sure how much of the tragedy has to do with what he is (Hurin's son) or who he is (generally speaking, a jerk).

I think in the last bracket you're being too harsh on Túrin. His interactions with Sador Labadal and Mîm the Dwarf show he could be kind, compassionate and generous, as well as brave, stubborn and arrogant. After all, if he had no redeeming features there would be no tragedy; if we couldn't sympathize (if not identify) with him to some degree, we wouldn't feel his fate to be tragic, would we?
Actually, I find him one of the most well-rounded characters Tolkien created, and the childhood story in the Narn is very interesting in showing how the influence of both his parents contributed in forming the man he grew up to be. At the risk of sounding misogynic, it appears to me that his less amiable traits (i.e. those that helped the fulfilling of Morgoth's curse) were largely due to Morwen; the Narn describes her as "stern of mood and proud" - to which we might add 'unwilling to accept advice' (witness her leaving Doriath against the counsel of Thingol and Melian) and 'quick to judge others severely' (witness her reaction when Túrin gave his knife to Sador, compared to Húrin's). We find all this in her son, mixed with Húrin's valour, endurance and great-heartedness (is that a word?).

Originally Posted by Hookbill

Many times Turin is gifted the opportunity to settle down and not go after his doom, but each time, when a new danger arises, he straps on his sword and goes out.

Of course he did, and I find it hard to fault him for it. He was a natural born leader of the kind that leads from the front and felt it his duty to risk his own life and happiness to protect those who depended on him. When people act like they feel they must and thereby become guilty and doom themselves, that's when true tragedy happens.

Great thread, Hookbill, and thanks for bumping Peake up on my reading list!

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Of course he did, and I find it hard to fault him for it. He was a natural born leader of the kind that leads from the front and felt it his duty to risk his own life and happiness to protect those who depended on him. When people act like they feel they must and thereby become guilty and doom themselves, that's when true tragedy happens.

I think you're right here. I always questioned weather Turin ever really desired to settled down at all. I suspect that had he survived Glaurung and Niniel had lived he would still have gone out again and again to war. That's the pattern of his behaviour. Again, he has a compassionate side, but also a violent one. It is the loss of this side of him that often seems the most tragic. Knowing that there was something else in him beyond the warrior.

The same is true of Steerpike, to reiterate my original comparison . He is vindictive and violent, like Turin, but he too has a gentle side. For most of the story it seems that his affection for Fuchsia seems nothing but a mask to get him the power he wants. But when she finally rejects him there is a real sense of sadness from him and loss. Indeed, it is this emotional whack that, I thought, sent him over the edge.

I'm also reminded of the times during the CoH where, as a young boy, Turin was given the figures of animals and men by Sador but would rather listen to the tales of battle.

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

If Turin had no curse, it is difficult to say how he would turn out. Would he still die young and tortured? Perhaps not. As that saying goes Actions speak louder than words, Morgoth's curse was just words, yes they did go into effect at some point (when this was is unclear) but Turin's actions ultimately led to his downfall, I think.

Hard to say. One gets the impression he had been 'beyond the reach' of the curse at times. Indeed, he as even been on the verge of escaping it yet has often run right into it at the moment freedom was within his grasp. But if Morgoth's curse had such a hold on him to lead him to doom, one often wonders what might have happened if it had not been so. Could he have become a great leader of the armies of Doriath and fought in an assault on Angband? I don't know, his character may have always driven him away from the places he was most welcome and loved. Poor bloke.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

Hard to say. One gets the impression he had been 'beyond the reach' of the curse at times. Indeed, he as even been on the verge of escaping it yet has often run right into it at the moment freedom was within his grasp. But if Morgoth's curse had such a hold on him to lead him to doom, one often wonders what might have happened if it had not been so. Could he have become a great leader of the armies of Doriath and fought in an assault on Angband? I don't know, his character may have always driven him away from the places he was most welcome and loved. Poor bloke.

That is just the point. If Turin was sometimes just on the verge of escaping it (the curse) then what brought the curse back to full power? If the curse went from being very powerful, to not so powerful, back to being more powerful-then that would be the fault of Turin. If Turin had a bit of control over how much of a hold that curse had on him, then he might be able to lessen its effects. I would think that what makes a big factor in this is Turin's behaviour. If Turin was acting very prideful and self-centred, then that curse would have more of a hold on him and visa versa. I can just imagine Turin singing You Really Got A Hold On Me to Morgoth.

But if you are correct in your assesment, Hookbill- that Turin went always from the places that he was loved- then perhaps that could also be the effects of his curse. As far as being a person of high rank and honour in Doriath, consider this: Turin was pardoned by Thingol, the king for the death of Saeros. How do we know that the rest of the inhabitants of Region wouldn't still have some animosity against Turin?
Would he ever get Finduilas like he wanted? And like you said again, Hook- Steerpike was turned down by a particular lady and that seemed to lead to his downfall. What if Finduilas would have survived? Would she have turned him down? Finduilas' death caused enough anger and sorrow in Turin that it could have been just another thing to cause his demise. Turin's fall from dignity doesn't just happen once, it happens over, and over again. These summed up could have been a very heavy weight, not considering his thought that Nienor was dead before he killed himself. Was it because of the women in his life?

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

For me I think the most fascinating thing behind Turin is that you can't be entirely sure how much of the tragedy has to do with what he is (Hurin's son) or who he is (generally speaking, a jerk). We know, objectively, that the entire family's been cursed, but there's nothing that really points to that fact in Turin's life. Almost all the bad things that happen to him are a direct consequence of his choices. So we're never sure if there was a possibility he could have outrun the curse or not...

Mmm, ambiguity.

I don't think that Turin could have outrun his fate whether he had a curse or not. Turin made some pretty bad decisions in his life, granted these were probably made worse by the curse on his father and his descendants. Turin though, was not a jerk, he was just stubborn. Very stubborn.

If Turin had no curse, it is difficult to say how he would turn out. Would he still die young and tortured? Perhaps not. As that saying goes Actions speak louder than words, Morgoth's curse was just words, yes they did go into effect at some point (when this was is unclear) but Turin's actions ultimately led to his downfall, I think. Turin had some bad Kharma, so to say, but that was nothing compared to his actions. If we look back to Turin's childhood (which has already been done earlier in this thread) then we see tha he was a rather gracious boy, but later he becomes a bit greedy and selfish. I think his attutude was a little bit like he had this curse, so he was supposed to be the centre of attention when he was around. Was this because of that pesky curse, or was this because Turin genuinely made some bad choices and those choices led to his downfall?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Morgoth may have led Túrin to a path of destruction, but it was Túrin who chose to follow it.

I agree. Character flaws are always a great contributor to the ultimate downfall of the tragic figure. In Steerpike's case it was also his pride and arrogance that lead him to be discovered and his plans be overturned.
This desire for prowess and need for more seems to be a prominent factor in both. Many times Turin is gifted the opportunity to settle down and not go after his doom, but each time, when a new danger arises, he straps on his sword and goes out. One of the most poignant points in CoH for me were the scenes just before Turin decides to face the Dragon. Níniel tries to disuade him, but Turin goes all the same. First when the Orcs are invading;

But ehrn tidings of the coming of the Orcs were first brought to Ephel Brandir, he [Turin] did not go forth and yielded to the prayers of Níniel. For she said: 'Our homes are not yet assailed as your word was. It is said that the Orcs are not many and Dorlas told me that before you came such affrays were seldom, and the woodmen held them off.'
But the woodment were worsted, for these Orcs were of a fell breed, fierce and cunning; and indeed they came with a purpose to invade Brethil, not as before passing through its eaves on other errands or hunting in small bands...
...
Therefore Turambar arose, and took up again his sword Gurthang and he went to battle.

Later when the Dragon himself comes...

Now Turambar was in haste to go; but when he came to Níniel to bid her farewell, she clung to him, weeping grievously. 'Go not forth, Turambar, I beg!' she said. 'Challenge not the shadow you have fled from! Nay, nay, flee still, and take me with you, far away!'
'Níniel most dear,' he answered, 'we cannot flee further, you and I. We are hemmed in this land. And even should I go, deserting the people that befriended us, I coulf not take you forth into the houseless wild, to your death and the death of our child... Take heart, Níniel. For I say to you: neither you nor I shall be slain by this Dragon, nor by any foes of the North.' Then Níniel ceased to weep and fell silent, but her kiss was cold as they parted.

Túrin does try to justify his decisions. But ultimately, it is, as Mnemosyne said, "you can't be entirely sure how much of the tragedy has to do with what he is (Hurin's son) or who he is."

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

Túrin does try to justify his decisions. But ultimately, it is, as Mnemosyne said, "you can't be entirely sure how much of the tragedy has to do with what he is (Hurin's son) or who he is."

Well, it seems to me that Morgoth's curse only made use of the tools Túrin gave it. One wonders how someone else placed into the same situations as Túrin would have done. In the Appendix to the Narn in UT Túrin is compared to Tuor by the Elves Gelmir and Arminas, who had come to Nargothrond to bear Ulmo's warning to Orodreth. They had earlier encountered Tuor as he sought the Gate of the Noldor.

"I spoke not of the difference between the black (hair) and the gold," said Arminas. "But others of the House of Hador bear themselves otherwise, and Tuor among them. For they use courtesy, and they listen to good counsel, holding the Lords of the West in awe. But you, it seems, will take counsel with your own wisdom, or with your sword only; and you speak haughtily. And I say to you, Agarwaen Mormegil, that if you do so, other shall be your doom than one of the Houses of Hador and Bëor might look for.