Titus Turambar: Tragic Tales

[Mnemosyne]

Excellent thread, Hookbill!

A little contrived? Perhaps. But I'd like to hear other thoughts on what exactly is the nature of the tragedy of Turin. What, do you think, is the most striking element of his downfall?

For me I think the most fascinating thing behind Turin is that you can't be entirely sure how much of the tragedy has to do with what he is (Hurin's son) or who he is (generally speaking, a jerk). We know, objectively, that the entire family's been cursed, but there's nothing that really points to that fact in Turin's life. Almost all the bad things that happen to him are a direct consequence of his choices. So we're never sure if there was a possibility he could have outrun the curse or not...

Mmm, ambiguity.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

For me I think the most fascinating thing behind Turin is that you can't be entirely sure how much of the tragedy has to do with what he is (Hurin's son) or who he is (generally speaking, a jerk).

I think in the last bracket you're being too harsh on Túrin. His interactions with Sador Labadal and Mîm the Dwarf show he could be kind, compassionate and generous, as well as brave, stubborn and arrogant. After all, if he had no redeeming features there would be no tragedy; if we couldn't sympathize (if not identify) with him to some degree, we wouldn't feel his fate to be tragic, would we?
Actually, I find him one of the most well-rounded characters Tolkien created, and the childhood story in the Narn is very interesting in showing how the influence of both his parents contributed in forming the man he grew up to be. At the risk of sounding misogynic, it appears to me that his less amiable traits (i.e. those that helped the fulfilling of Morgoth's curse) were largely due to Morwen; the Narn describes her as "stern of mood and proud" - to which we might add 'unwilling to accept advice' (witness her leaving Doriath against the counsel of Thingol and Melian) and 'quick to judge others severely' (witness her reaction when Túrin gave his knife to Sador, compared to Húrin's). We find all this in her son, mixed with Húrin's valour, endurance and great-heartedness (is that a word?).

Originally Posted by Hookbill

Many times Turin is gifted the opportunity to settle down and not go after his doom, but each time, when a new danger arises, he straps on his sword and goes out.

Of course he did, and I find it hard to fault him for it. He was a natural born leader of the kind that leads from the front and felt it his duty to risk his own life and happiness to protect those who depended on him. When people act like they feel they must and thereby become guilty and doom themselves, that's when true tragedy happens.

Great thread, Hookbill, and thanks for bumping Peake up on my reading list!

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Of course he did, and I find it hard to fault him for it. He was a natural born leader of the kind that leads from the front and felt it his duty to risk his own life and happiness to protect those who depended on him. When people act like they feel they must and thereby become guilty and doom themselves, that's when true tragedy happens.

I think you're right here. I always questioned weather Turin ever really desired to settled down at all. I suspect that had he survived Glaurung and Niniel had lived he would still have gone out again and again to war. That's the pattern of his behaviour. Again, he has a compassionate side, but also a violent one. It is the loss of this side of him that often seems the most tragic. Knowing that there was something else in him beyond the warrior.

The same is true of Steerpike, to reiterate my original comparison . He is vindictive and violent, like Turin, but he too has a gentle side. For most of the story it seems that his affection for Fuchsia seems nothing but a mask to get him the power he wants. But when she finally rejects him there is a real sense of sadness from him and loss. Indeed, it is this emotional whack that, I thought, sent him over the edge.

I'm also reminded of the times during the CoH where, as a young boy, Turin was given the figures of animals and men by Sador but would rather listen to the tales of battle.

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

If Turin had no curse, it is difficult to say how he would turn out. Would he still die young and tortured? Perhaps not. As that saying goes Actions speak louder than words, Morgoth's curse was just words, yes they did go into effect at some point (when this was is unclear) but Turin's actions ultimately led to his downfall, I think.

Hard to say. One gets the impression he had been 'beyond the reach' of the curse at times. Indeed, he as even been on the verge of escaping it yet has often run right into it at the moment freedom was within his grasp. But if Morgoth's curse had such a hold on him to lead him to doom, one often wonders what might have happened if it had not been so. Could he have become a great leader of the armies of Doriath and fought in an assault on Angband? I don't know, his character may have always driven him away from the places he was most welcome and loved. Poor bloke.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

Hard to say. One gets the impression he had been 'beyond the reach' of the curse at times. Indeed, he as even been on the verge of escaping it yet has often run right into it at the moment freedom was within his grasp. But if Morgoth's curse had such a hold on him to lead him to doom, one often wonders what might have happened if it had not been so. Could he have become a great leader of the armies of Doriath and fought in an assault on Angband? I don't know, his character may have always driven him away from the places he was most welcome and loved. Poor bloke.

That is just the point. If Turin was sometimes just on the verge of escaping it (the curse) then what brought the curse back to full power? If the curse went from being very powerful, to not so powerful, back to being more powerful-then that would be the fault of Turin. If Turin had a bit of control over how much of a hold that curse had on him, then he might be able to lessen its effects. I would think that what makes a big factor in this is Turin's behaviour. If Turin was acting very prideful and self-centred, then that curse would have more of a hold on him and visa versa. I can just imagine Turin singing You Really Got A Hold On Me to Morgoth.

But if you are correct in your assesment, Hookbill- that Turin went always from the places that he was loved- then perhaps that could also be the effects of his curse. As far as being a person of high rank and honour in Doriath, consider this: Turin was pardoned by Thingol, the king for the death of Saeros. How do we know that the rest of the inhabitants of Region wouldn't still have some animosity against Turin?
Would he ever get Finduilas like he wanted? And like you said again, Hook- Steerpike was turned down by a particular lady and that seemed to lead to his downfall. What if Finduilas would have survived? Would she have turned him down? Finduilas' death caused enough anger and sorrow in Turin that it could have been just another thing to cause his demise. Turin's fall from dignity doesn't just happen once, it happens over, and over again. These summed up could have been a very heavy weight, not considering his thought that Nienor was dead before he killed himself. Was it because of the women in his life?

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

For me I think the most fascinating thing behind Turin is that you can't be entirely sure how much of the tragedy has to do with what he is (Hurin's son) or who he is (generally speaking, a jerk). We know, objectively, that the entire family's been cursed, but there's nothing that really points to that fact in Turin's life. Almost all the bad things that happen to him are a direct consequence of his choices. So we're never sure if there was a possibility he could have outrun the curse or not...

Mmm, ambiguity.

I don't think that Turin could have outrun his fate whether he had a curse or not. Turin made some pretty bad decisions in his life, granted these were probably made worse by the curse on his father and his descendants. Turin though, was not a jerk, he was just stubborn. Very stubborn.

If Turin had no curse, it is difficult to say how he would turn out. Would he still die young and tortured? Perhaps not. As that saying goes Actions speak louder than words, Morgoth's curse was just words, yes they did go into effect at some point (when this was is unclear) but Turin's actions ultimately led to his downfall, I think. Turin had some bad Kharma, so to say, but that was nothing compared to his actions. If we look back to Turin's childhood (which has already been done earlier in this thread) then we see tha he was a rather gracious boy, but later he becomes a bit greedy and selfish. I think his attutude was a little bit like he had this curse, so he was supposed to be the centre of attention when he was around. Was this because of that pesky curse, or was this because Turin genuinely made some bad choices and those choices led to his downfall?