WWLXX: At the Prison of Ice

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

As an ordo I know it. 'nuff said - meaning we're coming to the "uncomfortable zone" here and I'm not willing to argue anything as it's one of those things a player is not allowed to produce evidence for (which is actually just fair). Everyone can use their little grey cells though... and I suggest you all ordos do it and see it yourselves.

Yes, but people don't always pay close attention to things, especially if they don't have a role.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

The only interesting thing to talk about at this point appears to be Boro. I don't think he's a wolf, for the following reason. Wolf-Boro could certainly have accidentally put himself into the tight spot with #29, but he would know better than to keep on arguing a lost cause (lost not even necessarily because he's wrong, but because everybody disagrees with him, and you can already see a malreasoned bandwaggon looming). Wolf-Boro would have dropped it long ago.

Ironically, I agree with you on this point, because it doesn't typically help a wolf to be the center of a debate, and on a very unpopular side of the debate at that. If he had tried to drop it, that would have been more suspicious. On the whole, it's just a bad idea, and one that is dangerous to the village, but I don't think that's how he meant it.

Originally Posted by Mac

Roa is innocent-looking because, while maintaining the discussion, she puts herself out there and doesn't just stay around the corners. Of course, we're talking about Roa here - so she's probably evil anyway.

*points to sig*

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I'd like to point out, however, that being agreeable is another matter. Truth to be said, I regularly find myself agreeing with much too many people most of the time, but we should watch out for those who seem eager to rub everybody the right way.

This is very true. Agreeableness and reasonableness are two different facts, and wolves tend to not want to make themselves lynchable by getting on everyone's nerves.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Okay, looking at that, I'll brave to voice this concern my wolf spotting has brought me to face.

So Roa tried to mislead us about her knowledge of the situation - and I can't see a reason what a gifted Roa would gain from that against the wolves at Nights as they would not start thinking she's someone they can afford to ignore from that. But a wolf-Roa might gain the edge in a possible tight voting if people thought she was not up to the situation...

If no one else screams a wolf toDay my vote will definitively go to Roa.

What? Huh? Really? First, you spend your posts using in character banter, and now you decide I'm guilty on a number slip? With all do respect, are you on something? This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen yet.

Also, Bes is male....

Edit: fixed quote

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also I don't like Brinn's idea of not voting toDay. It's not only that the lynchings are our only weapon, but also the votes are one of the very few clues we have so not voting is kind of saying "I'm not going to let you read me". With this many players around it's probably a safe move.

And I'm sure you'd call it equally safe if I were to randomly vote instead. But at that point of the Day when it's too early to have the slightest suspicion, what else am I supposed to do?

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

It wasn't Brinn but Bes who suggested that, but I think it's excusable in her, as she's new to this. A mere slip?

I'm pretty sure Nogrod is talking about my own decision not to vote because it was still too early in the Day, even if I might not return.

But anyway, I am back now, for a short time at least (my participation may be spotty since I am at work). And if I have enough time to look back at some things and see enough to form a suspicion, then I will vote before I leave again.

I don't like the jump on Boro either. I personally found his message to make perfect sense, so I don't really know what the reactions are all about and for that reason, I would like to go back and take a look at those who did jump on him.

Also, I think voting for someone based only on what you think is a 'slip' is rather ridiculous. If you think that way, then fine. But have some evidence to further back up that suspicion before making the vote.

[Nogrod]

I must agree that questioning after Boro's "gifted talk" was a bit odd - as Boro talked sense. And it was first Roa and Nerwen who made the questions - and they are two players who should really understand what Boro was saying! As a rule of thumb (which can be broken of course in individual cases) gifted needs to look a bit suspicious so that the wolves think they can get her/him lynched and don't "waste" their Nightkill on that person.

Accidentally (?) it was also Nerwen who popped up to suggest defences for Roa after I voiced my trouble wth her. So a piece of bold team-work?

Well, not necessarily, but worth bearing in mind.


Yes, Brinn, you're correct. I meant your suggestion that you might not vote. I'd say everyone should vote. If one has to vote early then do not vote random (if there are any real "random votes" - but throwing dices etc.) but use your guts or hunches. Not voting is not playing fair but sneaking.


EDIT: Means you as well Sally...

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I must agree that questioning after Boro's "gifted talk" was a bit odd - as Boro talked sense. And it was first Roa and Nerwen who made the questions - and they are two players who should really understand what Boro was saying! As a rule of thumb (which can be broken of course in individual cases) gifted needs to look a bit suspicious so that the wolves think they can get her/him lynched and don't "waste" their Nightkill on that person.

Accidentally (?) it was also Nerwen who popped up to suggest defences for Roa after I voiced my trouble wth her. So a piece of bold team-work?

Well, not necessarily, but worth bearing in mind.


Yes, Brinn, you're correct. I meant your suggestion that you might not vote. I'd say everyone should vote. If one has to vote early then do not vote random (if there are any real "random votes" - but throwing dices etc.) but use your guts or hunches. Not voting is not playing fair but sneaking.


EDIT: Means you as well Sally...

*pets Nog* Don't worry, precious, I'm hoping to vote. I just consider it more courteous to let you know of the possibility that I may not than for you all to be waiting for me to vote at the end of the Day and have me not show up.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I must agree that questioning after Boro's "gifted talk" was a bit odd - as Boro talked sense. And it was first Roa and Nerwen who made the questions - and they are two players who should really understand what Boro was saying! As a rule of thumb (which can be broken of course in individual cases) gifted needs to look a bit suspicious so that the wolves think they can get her/him lynched and don't "waste" their Nightkill on that person.

What Boro said didn't make sense- he said that wolves are reasonable that gifteds aren't, implying that we ought to be lynching the reasonable ones. (By the way, you most certainly do NOT fall into that category.) Reasonableness is a terrible reason to lynch someone. Yes, the gifted need to be somewhat suspected to live, but it's not our job to worry about them.

Now who's trying to continue the debate? Oh, that would be you. By carrying on about the gifted an what they're doing, you are giving pointers to the wolves about how to spot gifted, and you're distracting the village from doing actual wolf-hunting. Not to mention the whole idea of what Boromir says discourages us from voting for people that we find suspicious for fear that they may be gifted, something that you seem keen to press on everyone while at the same time coming up with ludicrous suspicions that have no merit, further distracting the village.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And it was first Roa and Nerwen who made the questions - and they are two players who should really understand what Boro was saying! As a rule of thumb (which can be broken of course in individual cases) gifted needs to look a bit suspicious so that the wolves think they can get her/him lynched and don't "waste" their Nightkill on that person.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Perhaps it is something that obvious, but if it is that obvious, why do we keep realizing it only after "crap...lynched another gifted Day 1?"

Yes, but I acknowledged that point – see my posts at #34 and #56.

Originally Posted by Originally posted by Me

I mean, yes, it's true we've lynched gifteds a lot lately, to the point where I can understand people getting paranoid– but there's really not much the village as a whole can do to prevent it.

Originally Posted by Originally posted by Me

Then you say you're not saying that, so what are you saying? That we shouldn't all jump on the first person who looks a bit odd, as that person might well be gifted? That I'd agree with

What I'm saying is that this is true... but it's also kind of pointless, and doesn't really lead anywhere. I think that criticism's perfectly valid, as was asking you for an alternative. And that's pretty much all I did... despite the fact that I was supposedly "jumping" on you.

Honestly, if any molehill's having a mountain made of it, it's this "everyone jumped on Boro!" meme.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I admit I scan the rules and am liable to miss things, but if someone can't get the number of wolves correct, or the roles that's either plain laziness to not read the captain's notes or someone's faking ignorance. And in this circumstance the number of wolves was stated in more than one place. You are anything but lazy in your analysis Roa, to state the wrong number of wolves, looks more than an innocent slip or failure in double checking.

Okay, but isn't this verging on forbidden meta-reasoning? Besides, maybe she did get lazy this once.

EDIT:X'd with Roa, Lommy and Nogrod. (Yes, the "molehill" is a coincidence!)

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I wouldn't so much say you backpedalled as that you haven't made it at all clear what you are proposing. You certainly seemed to be implying that we should lynch helpful people first and suspicious ones last. Then you say you're not saying that, so what are you saying? That we shouldn't all jump on the first person who looks a bit odd, as that person might well be gifted? That I'd agree with– however, it's a point you could have made a lot more clearly and concisely.

I can do blunt, but clear and concise is not my thing.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Meanwhile, it being Day One, peculiar statements are going to draw attention. There's not much else to go on, after all. Boro has been saying something perfectly obvious as though it's a revelation; sometimes he seems to be be saying we should lynch on that basis and sometimes not... and if not, I don't see why he's going on about it.

Perhaps it is something that obvious, but if it is that obvious, why do we keep realizing it only after "crap...lynched another gifted Day 1?"

What? Huh? Really? First, you spend your posts using in character banter, and now you decide I'm guilty on a number slip? With all do respect, are you on something? This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen yet.~Roa

But it looks so much like purpose slip, because I know what Nog is talking about and I double-checked the captain's notes even before your number slip. You gasp about wolves, and then for some reason give the number of them, but it's the wrong number.

I admit I scan the rules and am liable to miss things, but if someone can't get the number of wolves correct, or the roles that's either plain laziness to not read the captain's notes or someone's faking ignorance. And in this circumstance the number of wolves was stated in more than one place. You are anything but lazy in your analysis Roa, to state the wrong number of wolves, looks more than an innocent slip or failure in double checking.

And just as quick as people jumped on, I'm not liking everyone jumping off! Aside from Brinn, Mac, and Eomer I don't trust those suddenly withdrawing from suspecting me.

Edit: crossed with sally and Nog

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

But it looks so much like purpose slip, because I know what Nog is talking about and I double-checked the captain's notes even before your number slip. You gasp about wolves, and then for some reason give the number of them, but it's the wrong number.

The gasp was sarcastic. I thought that was obvious. I was annoyed by the lack of actual game play in favor of in character banter, even to the point of saying that we didn't know there were wolves, when we all clearly do.

I admit I scan the rules and am liable to miss things, but if someone can't get the number of wolves correct, or the roles that's either plain laziness to not read the captain's notes or someone's faking ignorance. And in this circumstance the number of wolves was stated in more than one place. You are anything but lazy in your analysis Roa, to state the wrong number of wolves, looks more than an innocent slip or failure in double checking.

In my analysis, your right, I like to be thorough. But I scan admin threads, and I typically assume three wolves, because that's the typical number. What I don't like is how when I made my slip, you were all giggles. Now that someone has said, "Oh that's suspicious," you agree.

And just as quick as people jumped on, I'm not liking everyone jumping off! Aside from Brinn, Mac, and Eomer I don't trust those suddenly withdrawing from suspecting me.

Just to be clear, I said you were wrong, not suspicious. I believe you wouldn't have continued on like that were you evil. This is why we put pressure on people- to see how they react. Your reaction cleared you in my books, for now, at least.

[Thinlómien]

Does anybody else smell Nogrod&Roa collaboration in the air?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Roa

What do you make of the second part of his statement? That wolves slip by on reasonableness? How do you take that?

Well, people like Brinn, Pitchie, Greenie, etc... tend to slip under everyone's radar because they are so very considerate and reasonable. And you should be knowledgeable of their stunning victories! They are the most dangerous wolves there are as you don't normally have anything on them because they play so carefully (and reasonably) and they really have triumphed.

Btw. I'm not too interested in you suspecting or just disagreeing with Boro. That's quite off the mark.

Originally Posted by Nerwen on Boro

Okay, but isn't this verging on forbidden meta-reasoning? Besides, maybe she did get lazy this once.

Like you on her laziness...

But to be honest. It actually is, at least in part, meta-reasoning and I said so earlier talking about an "uncomfortable zone". I'm convinced of her guilt and can't / shouldn't act otherwise. But I'm not going to state anything more on that side of the issue but will continue trying to find any other things there could be (in a few hours as I now have to get off for a while).

(Heh, feels like my first game here years ago when I was the seer and dreamt of Roa on the first Night and then tried to convince others she was a wolf while not being able to just say why... Oh those were the days... )

"Mountain building"... I love it everytime I have time for it!

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'm convinced of her guilt and can't / shouldn't act otherwise. But I'm not going to state anything more on that side of the issue but will continue trying to find any other things there could be (in a few hours as I now have to get off for a while)

Nogrod, you say you're convinced of my guilt, but you refuse to give a reason why besides meta-gaming. And you openly state that you're looking for reasons to lynch me, meaning that you haven't actually got any.

I am now convinced that the secret role is the cobbler, and Nogrod is it. He's clearly hinting at being the seer, which the seer Nogrod wouldn't do, because he knows better than to do something so risky. Further more, he can't be the seer, because he most certainly wouldn't attack me like this if he was. Make no mistake, this is a cobbler planning a false reveal.

++Nogrod

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

What? Huh? Really? First, you spend your posts using in character banter, and now you decide I'm guilty on a number slip? With all do respect, are you on something? This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen yet.

IC = late night for me and just few posts on the thread - and I've kind of lost my appetite for Captain Obvious -stuff.

Am I on something? Well I am actually on bagging us a wolf. And am pretty serious about it.

Oh, and:

Originally Posted by Roa

What Boro said didn't make sense- he said that wolves are reasonable that gifteds aren't, implying that we ought to be lynching the reasonable ones.

Okay. Let's see what stirred all this talk...

Originally Posted by Boro

And how many times have we lynched gifteds because they need to look just as suspicious as wolves, but not too suspicious (making them look to us even more suspicious than the suspicious wolves) so the wolves don't kill them?

On the flip side, how many times do the reasonable, agreeable ones (myself often included in this, I admit) get free passes early, for being just that...reasonable and agreeable?

I really can't see what you see there Roa. I see there a reasonable remainder that we easily lynch gifteds as they need to look a bit suspicious in general (an especialy more inexperienced players may actually be a little nervous overreacting to things and thus look guilty, that can happen to a veteran as well) - and that wolves playing reasonable are easily slipping under our radars early on. To me that doesn't imply we should lynch the reasonable ones but to be careful / to remember there is this side as well.

Of course we should lynch those who look suspicious, but looking at the lynchings from several games backwards our statistics make pretty sad reading... So we should bear that in mind. It's a different thing to say than "lynch the reasonable / do not lynch suspicious looking people"!

So making a mountain out of a molehill?

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So making a mountain out of a molehill?

The only one doing that is you. I never suspected Boromir, I only disagreed with him. You're the one turning this into a huge deal and carrying on with it. Not to mention the whole number slip thing. That's not making a mountain out of a molehill?

A reasonable reminder of what, exactly, Nogrod? That we don't want to lynch gifteds? Well, duh, we all know that. What do you make of the second part of his statement? That wolves slip by on reasonableness? How do you take that?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So making a mountain out of a molehill?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Honestly, if any molehill's having a mountain made of it, it's this "everyone jumped on Boro!" meme.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

You're the one turning this into a huge deal and carrying on with it. Not to mention the whole number slip thing. That's not making a mountain out of a molehill?

Mountain building seems to be a popular hobby on this thread...

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Mountain building seems to be a popular hobby on this thread...

I believe it's Nogrod's favorite past time-

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Lommy

Does anybody else smell Nogrod&Roa collaboration in the air?

That already happened last game. Back then it was quite fun since I was teamed with them, but if they are in cahoots together yet again, just kill me now.

Btw, I'm voting shortly since I'm done with work soon and I'm tired of looking over my shoulder in fear of getting yelled at by my boss..

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Morsul

It has an odd tone about it... He(Or she, sorry name's a bit gender neutral) says basically the same thing about everyone but says it differently most important to me though are these ones-(I'll paraphrase)

....

Nerwen is fairly ambiguous in his quote but these 6 have similiar descriptions but 3 positive and three negative but based seemingly on the same logic of not doing much.

First off, it's he.

Then I don't understand where you're heading off to. Sure all 7 comments are similar - there wasn't much to draw conclusions from - but clearly (to me), 5 are neutral, one slightly negative (Inzil), and one slightly positive (Pitch). "Odd tone" is a very vague accusation. Can't argue with that...

Your reasons for your vote seem to come down to disagreements about Nerwen and Boro, mostly. I definitely did not come after everybody who disagreed with Boro, though. That's a misrepresentation.

Originally Posted by Morsul

I just disagree with this if he talked himself into a corner he could keep it up to look innocent

Maybe, but most likely, if he keeps it up, he will end up rubbing a sufficient number of people the wrong way and be lynched. An innocent who believes in his theory would risk that, not a wolf.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

because in fact ignoring an innocent Boro would also be a possible wolvish response– I should say a probable one.

Never claimed that my generalizations were perfect. In fact, I even joked about just that. I still think approaches like that are helpful, though. You criticise that I will miss at least one wolf with it - I say I will pick at least one wolf with it (or at least it helps to).

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Meanwhile, it being Day One, peculiar statements are going to draw attention.

That's how Day1's go a lot. One person makes a series of strange comments and then gets lynched for it - sometimes it's a wolf, most of the times not. I read Boro's comments, and while I disagree with them, I don't think they point to his guilt. I think that perfectly justifies looking at other people's reactions to them. I don't see the problem at all.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Sounds as if you're saying anyone who said anything in response to Boro could be evil. Aren't you painting with a rather broad brush?

This is almost exactly a copy of what Morsul and Nerwen said before. *raises eyebrows severely*


Unless people start giving a better reason to suspect Roa than that slip, I shall call the whole thing silly.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

In my analysis, your right, I like to be thorough. But I scan admin threads, and I typically assume three wolves, because that's the typical number. What I don't like is how when I made my slip, you were all giggles. Now that someone has said, "Oh that's suspicious," you agree.

True, I just wanted to make it known I noticed the mistake. The response was actually directed towards Inzil though, who asks "really?" and I thought I was seeing deja vu from last game. I didn't say anymore, because like Nog was unsure of, and Nerwen wonders if we are tiptoeing a line.

For the record, I usually assume there are 3 wolves too, and sometimes their number is unclear, which leads to understandable slips. However, Legate articulated their number more than once, and so any honest slip ups seem less likely.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

What I'm saying is that this is true... but it's also kind of pointless, and doesn't really lead anywhere. I think that criticism's perfectly valid, as was asking you for an alternative. And that's pretty much all I did... despite the fact that I was supposedly "jumping" on you.

Honestly, if any molehill's having a mountain made of it, it's this "everyone jumped on Boro!" meme.

I haven't considered it as an "attack" against me, and I agree with the last sentence, see my last post.

Okay, but isn't this verging on forbidden meta-reasoning? Besides, maybe she did get lazy this once.

If someone misrepresents the rules (either honestly or feigned) I see no reason why:

1. It should not be corrected
2. I see no reason others pointing out the number was provided in more than one place shouldn't be allowed.

There are certain meta-reasons that are always, and justifiably, off limits. The problem becomes, and I've said this to others before, believe it or not I've been holding back more than usual lately out of fear it's meta-reason and that's just unfair/unfun to everyone. But if someone uses meta-reasons as a defense for themselves or an excuse how fair is that?

The fact is Roa stated a wrong number, whether it's an honest mistake or faked ignorance, I don't know. But I don't see anything wrong with Nog wondering that an honest mistake is less likely considering it wasn't something that I found terribly unclear nor uncommunicated by Legate.

I will say because of Nog's post about it, I buy the honesty in bringing it forward. If he's pulling one over kudos. Now he could be misleading, making a mountain out of a molehill, but it shows an honest willingness to lynch wolves.

That being said, Nog do you really think wolf-Roa would purposefully state the wrong number of wolves? What does she gain from acquiring what will surely be lots of uneeded attention?

True as your heart may be, I'm not going to vote for Roa based on those reasons. I intend to vote for people who have been around the block more than once and I've come to expect more from, but so far not seeing it.

Such as Inzil, Nienna, Pitch, and Mnemo. I know all about the fact that no one can dedicate the same time, or be as available as others. But you have all made your presense known throughout the Day, yet nothing stands out, besides naming a few people and/or saying you're here, but there's no more time to comment. Nienna, I find your second post a half-[bleep] attempt to contribute something (please don't take offense to that, I'm just saying I know you're one of the quieter thinking types, but I've still come to expect more out of you). And Mnemo in many ways you started the questions and controversies, but have since hushed up about it.

Which leads me also to Lommy...

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Does anybody else smell Nogrod&Roa collaboration in the air?

I smell a tentative Lommy who I have been expecting to see more from, but have not.

Edit: crossed with everything after Roa's #90