Lúthien Tinúviel & the Istari

[Mugwump]

I suppose Saruman knew about Gandalf's possession Narya, didn't he? I imagine the entire Council of the Wise must've known it, and anyway Saruman was the wisest in the lore of the great rings. I never thought about how that might have influenced Saruman's relationship with Gandalf, and his actions toward him. Perhaps, considering his great interest in the rings of power, Saruman must've been quite jealous.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

I suppose Saruman knew about Gandalf's possession Narya, didn't he? I imagine the entire Council of the Wise must've known it, and anyway Saruman was the wisest in the lore of the great rings. I never thought about how that might have influenced Saruman's relationship with Gandalf, and his actions toward him. Perhaps, considering his great interest in the rings of power, Saruman must've been quite jealous.

It states quite clearly in the text that Cirdan only told Elrond and Galadriel of Gandalf's possession of Narya. For some reason, these three felt it better to withhold the information from Saruman, which is quite an interesting plot point. Galadriel, for her part, wanted Gandalf rather than Saruman to lead the White Council. It seems, even at the start, they did not fully trust Saruman in their hearts.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

It states quite clearly in the text that Cirdan only told Elrond and Galadriel of Gandalf's possession of Narya. For some reason, these three felt it better to withhold the information from Saruman, which is quite an interesting plot point. Galadriel, for her part, wanted Gandalf rather than Saruman to lead the White Council. It seems, even at the start, they did not fully trust Saruman in their hearts.

The UT essay on the Istari indicates Saruman at least had a strong suspicion Gandalf had Narya.

And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.

Saruman surely was not happy that fact had been kept from him. That probably fed his desire to act alone, and not keep the Council fully advised of his doings in looking for the One, even before he was dominated by Sauron and began to actively aid him.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Saruman surely was not happy that fact had been kept from him. That probably fed his desire to act alone, and not keep the Council fully advised of his doings in looking for the One, even before he was dominated by Sauron and began to actively aid him.

Yes, I suppose it was a chicken or the egg type situation: did Saruman begin acting alone due to plots against him in the White Council, or did the Wise actually act wise in this instance and withheld information that became crucial to saving Middle-earth? As I said, this is an intriguing plot point. What were the misgivings that drove Galadriel and even Gandalf to hide certain important information from Saruman? After all, he was the leader of the Istari, and obviously thought highly of by the Valar. And that's another thing -- once again, the Valar make a misjudgment! The Silmarillion is littered with Valaric mismanagement and misjudgments!

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Yes, I suppose it was a chicken or the egg type situation: did Saruman begin acting alone due to plots against him in the White Council, or did the Wise actually act wise in this instance and withheld information that became crucial to saving Middle-earth? As I said, this is an intriguing plot point. What were the misgivings that drove Galadriel and even Gandalf to hide certain important information from Saruman? After all, he was the leader of the Istari, and obviously thought highly of by the Valar. And that's another thing -- once again, the Valar make a misjudgment! The Silmarillion is littered with Valaric mismanagement and misjudgments!

Well, not all of the Valar thought so highly of him. In the chapter about the Istari in UT, it is mentioned that at the council in which the first of the Istari were chosen, after Curumo/Saruman and Alatar jumped up and volunteered, and Manwe volunteered Olorin/Gandalf, Manwe said that Olorin would go "as the third," and Varda said, "not as the third," which Curumo remembered. I can only imagine that Tolkien mentioned that he remembered this because it was the first indication that things would not go well between the two. Alas, the book is up the stairs which I just fell down, and I'm not going back up until the ice packs on my knee and elbow have numbed things a bit more. sigh

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Alas, the book is up the stairs which I just fell down, and I'm not going back up until the ice packs on my knee and elbow have numbed things a bit more. sigh

Ibrin, I do realize that my posts incite giddiness and effusive excitement amongst the forum-members here, but please, do me more careful in future.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Ibrin, I do realize that my posts incite giddiness and effusive excitement amongst the forum-members here, but please, do me more careful in future.

Oh, I wasn't going after the book. I was just numbing my mind while surfing the net on my laptop after I made the stupid slip. Not to say that the Downs are mind-numbing, of course...

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

It states quite clearly in the text that Cirdan only told Elrond and Galadriel of Gandalf's possession of Narya. For some reason, these three felt it better to withhold the information from Saruman, which is quite an interesting plot point.

I know the rings gifted to the Elves had the glamour of keeping people from noticing the rings unless they were specifically looking for them on the hands of their owners, but with all his knowledge of ring lore how could Saruman not know... unless Gandalf didn't wear it but kept it under his hat (or as a nipple ring maybe)?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

unless Gandalf didn't wear it but kept it under his hat (or as a nipple ring maybe)?

I actually think that's the case. Doesnt Gandalf say, when Frodo first notices Naria on his finger at the Grey Havens that he "wears it openly only now" (or is that just in the radio version?). That's sounds to me like he didn't actually wear the ring up until that point he just had it (unless he used some magic to make it invisible or unnoticed)

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I actually think that's the case. Doesnt Gandalf say, when Frodo first notices Naria on his finger at the Grey Havens that he "wears it openly only now" (or is that just in the radio version?). That's sounds to me like he didn't actually wear the ring up until that point he just had it (unless he used some magic to make it invisible or unnoticed)

Actually, the implication seems to be that there's some way for the bearers of the Three to mask their Rings, even as they wear them. Galadriel says it's remarkable that Frodo noticed Nenya (although not so remarkable considering he's a Ring-bearer himself), and even during the temptation scene when she holds the darn thing aloft for all to see Sam doesn't recognize it for what it is.

At any rate, if memory serves correctly the radio version puts what we have in the narrative into Frodo's lips since the narrator's role is limited. Presumably, in-story, this would have been something Sam noticed and recorded (which he wasn't able to do with Galadriel) since I doubt Frodo would've been working on the Red Book on the road.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Doesnt Gandalf say, when Frodo first notices Naria on his finger at the Grey Havens that he "wears it openly only now" (or is that just in the radio version?).

The text gives it as a narrative: As he turned and came towards them Frodo saw that Gandalf now wore openly on his hand the Third Ring, Narya the Great, and the stone upon it was red as fire. Then those who were to go were glad, for they knew that Gandalf also would take ship with them.

I suppose ring bearers, when not wearing their rings openly, carried them on chains around their necks as Frodo did his.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

I suppose ring bearers, when not wearing their rings openly, carried them on chains around their necks as Frodo did his.

The problem with this theory is that, in that case, they would not have been able to make use of them (simply having the Ring around his neck did not give Frodo any more powers except Improved Angst). But Galadriel says that the power of Nenya helps keep Lorien hidden, and Gandalf is able to raise spirits during the Siege of Gondor simply by passing people by.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

The problem with this theory is that, in that case, they would not have been able to make use of them (simply having the Ring around his neck did not give Frodo any more powers except Improved Angst).

Presumably they would not have to be constantly using their rings and so would not have to have them on their fingers all the time. We have seen that the rings, when used, have lasting effects that do not require the ring to stay on the finger. The sustaining power in particular of the rings can be effective merely by possession of the ring, without using it. For example, the text is clear that Frodo never put the ring on his finger in the 16 years between the time Bilbo left it to him after his 111th birthday party, and Frodo's departure for Rivendell. However, the text is equally clear that in those 16 years it became apparent that Frodo had somehow "inherited" Bilbo's unnatural ability to keep from physically aging.