Lúthien Tinúviel & the Istari

[Formendacil]

So... I had this post all written three hours ago... but then my Internet failed utterly and so Pitchwife totally beat me to it. I copy it anyway, since I give a different--canon-obsessed?--perspective with much the same answers.

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Originally Posted by Mugwump

Where are y'all getting all this info about the nature of the Istari and Melian? Outside of the "canon" (LotR & Silmarillion)?

Canonicity!

(A word of caution: Formy has been spoiling for people to get into a canonicity debate since high summer.)

I don't believe Tolkien ever wrote anywhere specifically about Melian's incarnation--hence the extrapolation and speculation by way of analogy to Sauron and the Istari. But Tolkien definitely wrote, extra-LotR about the Istari, and most of these essays are included as a chapter in section 4 of Unfinished Tales--which, I daresay, is at least as canonical as the published Silmarillion, which has the disadvantage, canonically, of being a synthesis (albeit an excellent and readable one) by Christopher Tolkien. The few bits and pieces on the Istari that didn't make it into the Unfinished Tales corpus were published in the final volume of the History of Middle-earth series, Vol. XII The Peoples of Middle-earth.

Now... as for how much of it is canonical... well, there are those who would say only The Lord of the Rings itself is. There are those who would extend it to cover as much of the HoME as they can.


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Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Form, thanks for improving on my post (and do I sense a mild correction of my flippancy there?)! Of course this thread has potential for interesting speculation, I didn't mean to deny that.

And I didn't mean to imply it--it just got me thinking. Always dangerous, that.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

In the case of the Istari, it's difficult to tell where 'forbidden' ends and 'incapable' begins, or whether both were actually two sides of the same coin. We never see Saruman neglecting the conditions of his contract so far as to display his full Maiarin power - does that mean he still felt bound to the letter of it, if not the spirit, or does it mean he couldn't if he'd tried? On the other hand, did Gandalf use his full power in his unwitnessed battle with the Balrog? I'm afraid we'll never know.

Hmm... my inclination, right at this moment, is to say that the Istari weren't restricted, even juridicially, in how much power they could use in Middle-earth (hence when Gandalf fights the Nazgûl or the Balrog, he's letting loose), but that the rule was more that they had to maintain the charade of being Old Men, which would, of course, cause a certain amount of caution. I mean, it's only from the extra-LotR texts that we know the Istari are Maiar, and even when Gandalf's returning to West, it's still not clear what he was when he left there.

However, while it does seem to me that while a case can be made from Gandalf's actions--more so, even, as the Grey than as the White--that he's not really inhibiting his Maiarin powers, just his Maiarin form, by being a wizard, I'm not entirely sure....

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Hmm... my inclination, right at this moment, is to say that the Istari weren't restricted, even juridicially, in how much power they could use in Middle-earth (hence when Gandalf fights the Nazgûl or the Balrog, he's letting loose), but that the rule was more that they had to maintain the charade of being Old Men, which would, of course, cause a certain amount of caution. I mean, it's only from the extra-LotR texts that we know the Istari are Maiar, and even when Gandalf's returning to West, it's still not clear what he was when he left there.

I think the fact that Gandalf the Grey's greatest displays of power (when he fights the Nazgûl and the Balrog) occur when there is no one else to witness is significant. The Istari, is is said :

were forbidden to match [Sauron's] power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force or fear.

ROTK The Tale of years

There was nothing wrong with their bringing the full range of their powers to bear in an emergency situation, but doing that in view of the Free Peoples of ME could lead too easily to the will of the Istari being done due to awe and fear, and not out of wisdom.
That said, Gandalf was possibly close to crossing the line when he threatened to 'uncloak' before Bilbo, in order to loosen the Ring's hold over him. Luckily, Bilbo took the hint.
Melian was under no such restictions. In order to remain true to the Music she was obligated to use discipline and her own sense of 'rightness' when utilising her diving powers, and she seems to have done a masterful job.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Melian was under no such restictions. In order to remain true to the Music she was obligated to use discipline and her own sense of 'rightness' when utilising her diving powers, and she seems to have done a masterful job.

Hmmm... now I'm wondering...

This "sense of 'rightness"--how far can you go with it?

I mean, I agree--at least in principle--that Melian's actions must have corresponded with her part in the Music. That seems to be, a priori, a fact about the Ainur--though maybe some here will argue that, as they will anything else.

But... was Melian right to do what she did? I mean, certainly, she was never an evil character. Furthermore, the results of her actions most certainly resulted in considerable good--namely the introduction of Maiarin blood into the noblest of the Elven and Mannish bloodlines, as well as the defence of Doriath.

But... was this what she was supposed to do?

I mean, if this is what she sung in the Music, was this because she sang aright the them of Ilúvatar? Or did the rebellion of Melkor incline her to start singing her own harmony? After all, Eru can work good out of the worst of things--as his words to Melkor "that no theme may be played in my despite", and insofar as Melian was still "good," I'd say she would be easily forgiven on that note.

All the same... I can't help but getting a rather Radagastly feeling from her, as though going native in Middle-earth, marrying a local, and getting involved in a land-war with Morgoth was not exactly toeing the party line. Certainly, she seems have lost all contact with Valinor once she settled in Doriath, and she's definitely active with the Noldor--more complicit with them, one might argue, than Thingol, given her greater sympathy--though not caught up in the Doom, due to being a Maia.

Definitely, she was more effective than Radagast... but... was she, perhaps, still a Radagast-like figure, rather than a Gandalf?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

All the same... I can't help but getting a rather Radagastly feeling from her, as though going native in Middle-earth, marrying a local, and getting involved in a land-war with Morgoth was not exactly toeing the party line.

Depending on whose line you're talking about, the Valar's or Eru's - which aren't necessarily identical. I don't quite feel that the Valar's policy of retiring to Valinor, setting up an Unblemished Disneyland (forgive the sarcasm) and summoning the Elves to live there happily ever after while abandoning Middle-earth to Morgoth to do there as he pleased had the One's unrestricted approval - it certainly didn't have Tolkien's, who repeatedly chided the Gods for their fainéance during most of the First Age.
Melian, on the other hand, not only was a teacher of wisdom to the Elves of Middle-earth (like the Valar were to those who had gone west), but also helped to protect them and provide a safe refuge against the forces of Morgoth. Maybe in her willingness to get involved she even was truer to Eru's will than the Lords of the West in their splendid isolation? I see nothing Radagastly at all there through my pair of spectacles, rather the contrary.
Marrying and producing offspring with one of His Children is another matter, of course - no idea what Eru thought of that. But consider: without Lúthien and her marriage to Beren, no Eärendil, no messenger who pleaded the case of the Children before the Valar and moved them to take some long delayed action, no War of Wrath and defeat of Morgoth (unless you take the early version where Earendel came too late and the Host of the West had already set forth). Maybe Melian's doings, together with Ulmo's (sending Tuor to Gondolin, etc.pp), were actually part of Eru trying to get the message across to the Valar that Morgoth's dominion of Middle-earth had gone on long enough?

[Mugwump]

I never understood how Melian, a Maia, was able to "take the form" of one of the children of Ilúvatar, to be able to procreate a child of Ilúvatar from her womb. I don't see how she was able to do that at all, effectively transforming herself into one of the children of Ilúvatar. Wasn't this power, to create life like that, reserved to Ilúvatar Himself? As I recall, one of the Valar, Aulë, created the Dwarves, and Ilúvatar wasn't too pleased, was he!

I've always been unclear about the Ainur (who comprise both the Valar and the Maia), who were supposedly created directly from the mind of Eru (Ilúvatar), and how they were able to mate with Elves and Men. If they could do that, could they mate with themselves as well, and produce offspring? And were they all (including Gandalf) created before Eä, so that they all heard the Ainulindalë (and did they remember it?) or were some created afterward? Did Gandalf have some kind of a childhood?

In fact, the doubts I have about this sometimes make me suspect that some of the elements of these stories may be fictional.

[Andsigil]

I wouldn't call the Istari "powered down" Maia. Gandalf did single-handedly defeat a Balrog, after all.

For some cross-cultural comparisons, Gandalf and the Balrog remind me of a pair of large guardian statues which flank the entrances of Buddhist Temples in Japan, most notably the Todai-Ji, located in Nara. Known as the "Nio" ("benevolent kings"), they represent two sides of the attribute of strength.

Agyo (阿形) is a symbol of overt strength and violence, is armed, and is depicted with an open mouth:


I see Balrogs, Melian, or other Maia who manifest their strength overtly as akin to an Agyo

(more in the post below, as I can't fit 4 images in one post)

[Andsigil]

(continued from above)

Ungyo (吽形) is usually bare-handed. He symbolizes latent strength, holding his mouth tightly shut:


I see Gandalf, or other Maia who manifest their strength latently and reservedly, as akin to an Ungyo.