The Names of Sauron

[Pitchwife]

I think Zil has some good points. I can quite well imagine Sauron adopting the name he was given out of defiance in his dealings with the West - à la, "They call me The Abhorred? Let them; I'll teach them horror!" (Although this doesn't go quite so well with those other etymologies where Sauron means "foul stench" or something of the like.) And it's also likely that the policy about the use of that name was different in foreign relations and for his own forces.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I do think it likely he didn't want his own servants to use that name under normal circumstances. He was not only their ruler, but aspired to be their god as well.

Very true, and this in a somewhat perverse way reminds me of the Jewish taboo against using the proper name of God (YHWH). It's not unlikely that Sauron's followers (at least the lower ranks) were under a 'religious' prohibition to utter his name, so that they had to refer to him as The Great Eye, Him, etc. instead, much like the forbidden name YHWH was paraphrased with other names (Elohim, Adonai, Shaddai, The Holy One, The Most High etc.).
As for the use of Sauron by high-ranking servants of the Dark Lord, such as The Mouth or the emissary to Erebor, that's a difficult question. What exactly were their feelings for the master they served? Fear, of course - but aside from that? Did they still believe the propaganda and consider him admirable, or did they know exactly their lord was the Worst Abomination in Middle-earth but just couldn't help going on serving him? I'd think a sort of love-hate relationship (maybe with a good dose of self-loathing in the mixture) most likely; and in this case, it might indeed have given The Mouth a perverse pleasure to call his master by his right name (using diplomatic license as an excuse), although he probably wouldn't have dared to use it within the walls of Barad-dûr.
If only there wasn't that quite apodictic statement by Aragorn, which seems to contradict all that. Obsolete information on Aragorn's part is one possibility, and simple inconsistency on Tolkien's another (though this would be much too easy); But maybe there's a third. From the article I linked to above:

Originally Posted by Helge Fauskanger

In the Adûnaic (Númenorean) tongue, he was apparently known as Zigûr, the Wizard (SD:247, 250, cf. 437).
One Quenya word for “wizard” is sairon (LR:385), and I have actually seen a suggestion to the effect that Sairon was the actual name of this Maia, which his enemies punningly altered to Sauron when he joined Morgoth.

So maybe The Mouth and the other emissary actually used Sairon, and Frodo's witnesses (remember he, the presumed author of the Red Book, wasn't present at either of the occasions) misheard it as Sauron, the name they were familiar with? They could easily have taken the slight difference for dialectal pronunciation...

(One last thought: one of the meanings given for the adjective maira, from which Mairon is derived, is "precious". So at least the part of Sauron he put into the Ring still had the pleasure of being called by its proper name...)

EDIT: This took me forever to write, so I x-ed with PotH and Sarumian.)

[Inziladun]

Very insightful replies, I think.

Assuming Aragorn was right, I'm pretty much of the mind that there were two standards Sauron had regarding his name: one for his servants among themselves, and one for dealings with the West.
Aragorn, in that statement, is speaking of Orcs specifically, that they were not allowed to say or write Sauron. And I think that was likely true. Higher level servants, such as the Mouth, and the embassy to the King Under the Mountain, would have been given special permission to use the name that the West would know The Dark Lord by best.
I don't agree with the idea that the Mouth would say Sauron as a private joke. The parley at the Morannon was being closely observed by Sauron! As far as the Mouth knew, the enemy forces would quickly be crushed, and he would go on to his new abode in Orthanc as his reward. Would he have said something expressly forbidden by Sauron, with that knowledge?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't agree with the idea that the Mouth would say Sauron as a private joke. The parley at the Morannon was being closely observed by Sauron!

Was it indeed? Unlike what Peter Jackson wants us to think, the Morannon was about 100 miles from Barad-dûr. Sauron could, of course, have observed the parley in his palantír (and he very likely would have), but as far as I remember, the Stones don't transmit sound, and The Mouth was probably facing away from him, so no lip-reading.
On the other hand, I concede that The Mouth would have had to reckon with the possibility that some of his escort, who were within earshot, would inform The Eye on his improper language.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

And I get the feeling that we're just back-justifying genuine plotholes using the Translator's Conceit yet again... (We run into a similar problem with the fact that "Moria" which wasn't called "Moria" until post-Balrog still has "Moria" engraved on its doors.)

Yes of course, but isn't it fun?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Was it indeed? Unlike what Peter Jackson wants us to think, the Morannon was about 100 miles from Barad-dûr. Sauron could, of course, have observed the parley in his palantír (and he very likely would have), but as far as I remember, the Stones don't transmit sound, and The Mouth was probably facing away from him, so no lip-reading.

Well, there was also the Eye, which I don't know if it transmitted sound or not. If not though, as you say the Mouth's entourage were witnesses, and would have been happy to inform their Master of the Mouth's impropriety.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, there was also the Eye, which I don't know if it transmitted sound or not. If not though, as you say the Mouth's entourage were witnesses, and would have been happy to inform their Master of the Mouth's impropriety.

Last line of defense:
Eye? What Eye? I take it you don't mean PJ's olympic fire, so apart from the palantír and Sauron's searching spirit/will, was there ever any unmetaphorical Eye scrying from Barad-dûr? (Yeah, I've read that thread...)
But as you say I said above, the point is mute, so you're probably right.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

For myself, I have always assumed that everything said about Sauron in LotR is filtered through Hobbits, because they were the ones who wrote the book (according to Tolkien's authorial conceit). Gandalf, for instance, is most often called Gandalf, even though his name among the Elves is Mithrandir (none of whom call him that until Lothlorien, if I recall correctly), Tharkun among the Dwarves (who never call him that), etc. Gandalf is the name the Hobbits knew best for him, and thus is the name that shows up most in the book they wrote that was the chronicle of the War.

Why Sauron would not let any of his servants speak or write his proper name seems rather peculiar, until one considers the power Tolkien ascribes to words in his mythos. There are many beliefs in the so-called real world that ascribe tremendous power and control to knowing another person's true name. Again, if I'm remembering correctly (I have no books at hand, so I'm winging it), the King of the Nazgul learned "black arts" from Sauron, and in sorcery, the knowledge of Sauron's true name, its utterance or its inscription, could permit a kind of magic to be used against him. He would not want anyone, especially his servants and slaves, to have even a chance of interfering with his power by such a means, even if it failed. So, the possibility that The Mouth actually used "Sauron," even though He Himself hated it, would have been preferable to using His true name. It is a small price to pay, allowing this servant to use the name His enemies know best when dealing with them as His ambassador.

Just some things I've thought for a while.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

There are many beliefs in the so-called real world that ascribe tremendous power and control to knowing another person's true name. Again, if I'm remembering correctly (I have no books at hand, so I'm winging it), the King of the Nazgul learned "black arts" from Sauron, and in sorcery, the knowledge of Sauron's true name, its utterance or its inscription, could permit a kind of magic to be used against him. He would not want anyone, especially his servants and slaves, to have even a chance of interfering with his power by such a means, even if it failed. So, the possibility that The Mouth actually used "Sauron," even though He Himself hated it, would have been preferable to using His true name. It is a small price to pay, allowing this servant to use the name His enemies know best when dealing with them as His ambassador.

Good point - but what exactly was Sauron's 'true name'? The problem with Mairon or Sairon is that both are Quenya names, given by the Elves, and as such secondary. His magical true name, the one that would give somebody power over him, would probably have been Valarin or in some even remoter Language of Creation (known only to Ilúvatar?), so there's little chance that The Mouth or anybody else in Middle-earth in the Third Age (except maybe the Istari) knew or remembered it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Was it indeed? Unlike what Peter Jackson wants us to think, the Morannon was about 100 miles from Barad-dûr. Sauron could, of course, have observed the parley in his palantír (and he very likely would have), but as far as I remember, the Stones don't transmit sound, and The Mouth was probably facing away from him, so no lip-reading.

Well, the main point is, I think, that the Mouth would just not dare to speak of Sauron like that in any case, unless he was really full of himself (which he probably was, but then, he was also intelligent enough not to get himself killed. Also, from the text we get the impression that he most likely spent half of his life by flattering Sauron - just take into account that he had really high status, if Sauron won, the Mouth would basically be close to being the second most powerful being in Middle-Earth - if we dismiss the Nazgul on the basis that they were basically still slaves, without entirely free will). In any case, he makes the impression of a total Sauron freak - just listen to him. If anybody is totally out of his mind and worships Sauron beyond anything, it's him. Total lunatic. He would never make jokes about his master. Apart from that, he seems to be a terrible showoff. Showing off his utter loyalty, that is. I mean, forgetting your own name and calling yourself "Mouth of Sauron" instead is enough of a proof.

By the way, good observation about the likely "religious taboo" status of Sauron's name among his own people. I have been thinking along the same lines. "Thou shalt not use the name of thy Lord" is most likely second or third commandment for the Mordorites as well.

Yes of course, but isn't it fun?

It indeed is, and that's why I am not going to get people away with cheap comments like "Aragorn was misinformed" Because I really think they are "easy way to solve the problem", and, let's face it, they are unlikely. If anybody knew anything about Sauron or whatever related, all this "high knowledge", it would be the Wise, a few other people like Denethor and then Aragorn. He is more likely to get things right (particularly in this area) than 99,9% of other inhabitants of Middle-Earth (that is, of the Western people).

The misinterpretation on the part of writers is at least a bit more sound argument - I could go with that one. Still, aren't there any other ideas? I am sure we are easily running out of possibilities, but I am just trying to get the best out of people

(And for that matter, even though I sound like dismissing them, I highly appreciate all the comments here this far - that's what I have been looking for, after all!)

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It indeed is, and that's why I am not going to get people away with cheap comments like "Aragorn was misinformed" Because I really think they are "easy way to solve the problem", and, let's face it, they are unlikely. If anybody knew anything about Sauron or whatever related, all this "high knowledge", it would be the Wise, a few other people like Denethor and then Aragorn. He is more likely to get things right (particularly in this area) than 99,9% of other inhabitants of Middle-Earth (that is, of the Western people).

Well, as has already been suggested, there is the possibility that Aragorn was right but that the Rule only applied to the "rank and file" of Mordor. Someone like The Mouth of Sauron would have been exempt.

In any case, as Sauron's emissary, The Mouth is literally speaking for Sauron. He is no mere servant or slave. He is Sauron's official representative, spokesman and proxy. Undoubtedly he is under strict instructions from Sauron himself and has been very carefully "coached".

Even in all his travels I'm sure Aragorn had never encountered the Mouth of Sauron, so I would simply say that when Aragorn made his statement "Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken," he simply hadn't anticipated a situation where an emissary of Sauron would be discussing terms with the Lords of the West. The only slight problem then is that Aragorn's statement implies that Sauron himself never uses his name - still, just because Sauron hasn't used it in the past doesn't mean he can't start using it now. Aragorn's statement should be interpreted as generally true - but it shouldn't be considered some kind of prophecy, as in "Never ever in the future will Sauron permit the use of his name".

I do have to wonder, what name did Sauron use when dealing with the Easterlings and Southrons?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

I do have to wonder, what name did Sauron use when dealing with the Easterlings and Southrons?

Since Sauron would have been a fixture in the cultures of both peoples for long years, I'd think he would have had a dedicated name in their languages. Maybe something meaning 'dark god', or 'black king'.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ibrin

Whether or not any of his servants or slaves actually DID know his true name would not prevent Sauron from issuing orders against it being spoken or written.

Edict From The Top #456176
"We, the Lord of the Rings, Lord of Barad-dûr, Núrnen and Gorgoroth, Liege-lord of Dol Guldur, Supreme God-King of Khand, Rhûn, Near and Far Harad and by right of all Middle-earth, known to Our subordinates as The (Great) Eye, He, The Top, etc., hereby expressly forbid all Our loyal subjects, under severest penalty, to use in speech or writing Our True Name, which we will not reveal here as it's none of their business.
Given at Our chancellery in Barad-dûr, through Our trusted secretary, the Mouth of ******, T.A. 2951."

Orcs, Nazgûl, Trolls, Variags, Easterlings, Haradrim etc.: "???"

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

So maybe The Mouth and the other emissary actually used Sairon, and Frodo's witnesses (remember he, the presumed author of the Red Book, wasn't present at either of the occasions) misheard it as Sauron, the name they were familiar with? They could easily have taken the slight difference for dialectal pronunciation...

I was just going to suggest something with translation. The PoV character for this chapter was Pippin, who had no reason to think that Sauron had any other name. Probably Gandalf and/or Aragorn, who were much more learned, would have been able to tell the linguistic difference--and possibly Frodo himself, if his skill at pronunciation extended to being able to tease apart other people's vowels--but Pippin at least would have reported it as "Sauron."

Granted, the section where this happens is told pretty objectively (I don't think we get anyone's thoughts), so maybe I just undermined this whole argument.

And I get the feeling that we're just back-justifying genuine plotholes using the Translator's Conceit yet again... (We run into a similar problem with the fact that "Moria" which wasn't called "Moria" until post-Balrog still has "Moria" engraved on its doors.)