The Names of Sauron

[Inziladun]

Very insightful replies, I think.

Assuming Aragorn was right, I'm pretty much of the mind that there were two standards Sauron had regarding his name: one for his servants among themselves, and one for dealings with the West.
Aragorn, in that statement, is speaking of Orcs specifically, that they were not allowed to say or write Sauron. And I think that was likely true. Higher level servants, such as the Mouth, and the embassy to the King Under the Mountain, would have been given special permission to use the name that the West would know The Dark Lord by best.
I don't agree with the idea that the Mouth would say Sauron as a private joke. The parley at the Morannon was being closely observed by Sauron! As far as the Mouth knew, the enemy forces would quickly be crushed, and he would go on to his new abode in Orthanc as his reward. Would he have said something expressly forbidden by Sauron, with that knowledge?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't agree with the idea that the Mouth would say Sauron as a private joke. The parley at the Morannon was being closely observed by Sauron!

Was it indeed? Unlike what Peter Jackson wants us to think, the Morannon was about 100 miles from Barad-dûr. Sauron could, of course, have observed the parley in his palantír (and he very likely would have), but as far as I remember, the Stones don't transmit sound, and The Mouth was probably facing away from him, so no lip-reading.
On the other hand, I concede that The Mouth would have had to reckon with the possibility that some of his escort, who were within earshot, would inform The Eye on his improper language.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

And I get the feeling that we're just back-justifying genuine plotholes using the Translator's Conceit yet again... (We run into a similar problem with the fact that "Moria" which wasn't called "Moria" until post-Balrog still has "Moria" engraved on its doors.)

Yes of course, but isn't it fun?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Was it indeed? Unlike what Peter Jackson wants us to think, the Morannon was about 100 miles from Barad-dûr. Sauron could, of course, have observed the parley in his palantír (and he very likely would have), but as far as I remember, the Stones don't transmit sound, and The Mouth was probably facing away from him, so no lip-reading.

Well, there was also the Eye, which I don't know if it transmitted sound or not. If not though, as you say the Mouth's entourage were witnesses, and would have been happy to inform their Master of the Mouth's impropriety.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, there was also the Eye, which I don't know if it transmitted sound or not. If not though, as you say the Mouth's entourage were witnesses, and would have been happy to inform their Master of the Mouth's impropriety.

Last line of defense:
Eye? What Eye? I take it you don't mean PJ's olympic fire, so apart from the palantír and Sauron's searching spirit/will, was there ever any unmetaphorical Eye scrying from Barad-dûr? (Yeah, I've read that thread...)
But as you say I said above, the point is mute, so you're probably right.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

For myself, I have always assumed that everything said about Sauron in LotR is filtered through Hobbits, because they were the ones who wrote the book (according to Tolkien's authorial conceit). Gandalf, for instance, is most often called Gandalf, even though his name among the Elves is Mithrandir (none of whom call him that until Lothlorien, if I recall correctly), Tharkun among the Dwarves (who never call him that), etc. Gandalf is the name the Hobbits knew best for him, and thus is the name that shows up most in the book they wrote that was the chronicle of the War.

Why Sauron would not let any of his servants speak or write his proper name seems rather peculiar, until one considers the power Tolkien ascribes to words in his mythos. There are many beliefs in the so-called real world that ascribe tremendous power and control to knowing another person's true name. Again, if I'm remembering correctly (I have no books at hand, so I'm winging it), the King of the Nazgul learned "black arts" from Sauron, and in sorcery, the knowledge of Sauron's true name, its utterance or its inscription, could permit a kind of magic to be used against him. He would not want anyone, especially his servants and slaves, to have even a chance of interfering with his power by such a means, even if it failed. So, the possibility that The Mouth actually used "Sauron," even though He Himself hated it, would have been preferable to using His true name. It is a small price to pay, allowing this servant to use the name His enemies know best when dealing with them as His ambassador.

Just some things I've thought for a while.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

There are many beliefs in the so-called real world that ascribe tremendous power and control to knowing another person's true name. Again, if I'm remembering correctly (I have no books at hand, so I'm winging it), the King of the Nazgul learned "black arts" from Sauron, and in sorcery, the knowledge of Sauron's true name, its utterance or its inscription, could permit a kind of magic to be used against him. He would not want anyone, especially his servants and slaves, to have even a chance of interfering with his power by such a means, even if it failed. So, the possibility that The Mouth actually used "Sauron," even though He Himself hated it, would have been preferable to using His true name. It is a small price to pay, allowing this servant to use the name His enemies know best when dealing with them as His ambassador.

Good point - but what exactly was Sauron's 'true name'? The problem with Mairon or Sairon is that both are Quenya names, given by the Elves, and as such secondary. His magical true name, the one that would give somebody power over him, would probably have been Valarin or in some even remoter Language of Creation (known only to Ilúvatar?), so there's little chance that The Mouth or anybody else in Middle-earth in the Third Age (except maybe the Istari) knew or remembered it.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

If I'm recalling the HoME books correctly, somewhere, Tolkien said that originally, none of the Ainur had names among themselves, because they spoke from mind to mind and thus recognized one another without the need for names as we think of them. That would make perfect sense, since language and speech is a convention of the physical world. While words were the delight of Manwe, I doubt very much that it was a delight he had until he entered Ea; language was the chief characteristic of an incarnate being, and until they themselves incarnated within the physical world, the Valar would have had no need for it. The Valar made their own language before the awakening of the Elves in anticipation their coming -- and even then, the Elves didn't care much for the sound of Valarin. Manawenuz became Manwe to the Elves, Ulluboz became Ulmo, Ibrîniðilpathânezel became Telperion, etc. (sorry for the lack of special characters; I still don't know how to do them via the html keyboard ). If they made names for themselves during this period, Sauron's first spoken name would have been in Valarin, but I don't believe it's ever mentioned; not a whole lot of Valarin words are known. Especially if it was a name he chose for himself, this would have been Sauron's "truest" spoken name, I should think, but very few people outside the Ainur might know what it was.

Whether or not any of his servants or slaves actually DID know his true name would not prevent Sauron from issuing orders against it being spoken or written. That he could not imagine anyone wanting to destroy the Ring shows that he had the kind of twisted mind that always believes his enemies are planning to do what he himself would do. He would think it necessary to prevent his name from being used against him because once he had his Ring and his power back, he would certainly use any knowledge of his enemies' true names against them.

Y'know, I think I know WAY too many people with that kind of dysfunctional mindset.... *sigh*

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

what exactly was Sauron's 'true name'? The problem with Mairon or Sairon is that both are Quenya names, given by the Elves, and as such secondary. His magical true name, the one that would give somebody power over him, would probably have been Valarin or in some even remoter Language of Creation (known only to Ilúvatar?), so there's little chance that The Mouth or anybody else in Middle-earth in the Third Age (except maybe the Istari) knew or remembered it.

I think that all the names of the ainur that we know aren't "true" names. Maybe they didn't have names as we see them before the creation of Ea. It's this abstractish thing that's hard to explain, but you can know a person without knowing their name. It's a bit like Entish, I guess - like Treebeard calles orcs a list of well-deserved names, but without actually saying any Name. Maybe Melkor was known as "the greatest after the greatest" (greatest meaning Eru). Many of the names of the ainur represent their role in making Arda, or in their "everyday job". Quite a lot of names have actual meanings, and are given/taken for a reason. However, there's a difference between a Name, and a description. For example, "Gilthoniel - Kindler of Stars" is Varda's job (ie her description), but it became one of her Names (probably because it was used by many Eruhini). A description could be applied to a number of people, but a Name is something unique. You don't need to know the Name in order to recognize a person, if I only know his/her "description". Also, each person has a certain assosiation in my mind, and I suppose in others' too: it's as if you show Treebeard an orc and he thinks right away...whatever he thought of them. As soon as you hear the description, you can link it with the assosiation, and know the person without ever using the Name.
Just to sumarize all my babble: I don't think that the ainur had actual Names before Ea. They probably knew each other by assosiations, and their Names were descriptions attached to them by Eruhini. Considering the fact that they could get a lot closer in thoughts than we can, this theory is very probable. It's not like a chat forum: *Hi Manwe, Yavanna speaking. Aule told me...* Suppose we could communicate with thoughts - I think I'd recogize a person by who he is, not his/her Name. (like talking with concepts, maybe?)

PS: This is my opinion, that's based on my thoughts. I haven't found a counterargument to that in those Tolkien books that I've read - which isn't very much.

PPS: The Ainulindale and Valaquenta in The Sil use the names given to the ainur later on, to save the trouble of speaking Entish with English words

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Was it indeed? Unlike what Peter Jackson wants us to think, the Morannon was about 100 miles from Barad-dûr. Sauron could, of course, have observed the parley in his palantír (and he very likely would have), but as far as I remember, the Stones don't transmit sound, and The Mouth was probably facing away from him, so no lip-reading.

Well, the main point is, I think, that the Mouth would just not dare to speak of Sauron like that in any case, unless he was really full of himself (which he probably was, but then, he was also intelligent enough not to get himself killed. Also, from the text we get the impression that he most likely spent half of his life by flattering Sauron - just take into account that he had really high status, if Sauron won, the Mouth would basically be close to being the second most powerful being in Middle-Earth - if we dismiss the Nazgul on the basis that they were basically still slaves, without entirely free will). In any case, he makes the impression of a total Sauron freak - just listen to him. If anybody is totally out of his mind and worships Sauron beyond anything, it's him. Total lunatic. He would never make jokes about his master. Apart from that, he seems to be a terrible showoff. Showing off his utter loyalty, that is. I mean, forgetting your own name and calling yourself "Mouth of Sauron" instead is enough of a proof.

By the way, good observation about the likely "religious taboo" status of Sauron's name among his own people. I have been thinking along the same lines. "Thou shalt not use the name of thy Lord" is most likely second or third commandment for the Mordorites as well.

Yes of course, but isn't it fun?

It indeed is, and that's why I am not going to get people away with cheap comments like "Aragorn was misinformed" Because I really think they are "easy way to solve the problem", and, let's face it, they are unlikely. If anybody knew anything about Sauron or whatever related, all this "high knowledge", it would be the Wise, a few other people like Denethor and then Aragorn. He is more likely to get things right (particularly in this area) than 99,9% of other inhabitants of Middle-Earth (that is, of the Western people).

The misinterpretation on the part of writers is at least a bit more sound argument - I could go with that one. Still, aren't there any other ideas? I am sure we are easily running out of possibilities, but I am just trying to get the best out of people

(And for that matter, even though I sound like dismissing them, I highly appreciate all the comments here this far - that's what I have been looking for, after all!)

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It indeed is, and that's why I am not going to get people away with cheap comments like "Aragorn was misinformed" Because I really think they are "easy way to solve the problem", and, let's face it, they are unlikely. If anybody knew anything about Sauron or whatever related, all this "high knowledge", it would be the Wise, a few other people like Denethor and then Aragorn. He is more likely to get things right (particularly in this area) than 99,9% of other inhabitants of Middle-Earth (that is, of the Western people).

Well, as has already been suggested, there is the possibility that Aragorn was right but that the Rule only applied to the "rank and file" of Mordor. Someone like The Mouth of Sauron would have been exempt.

In any case, as Sauron's emissary, The Mouth is literally speaking for Sauron. He is no mere servant or slave. He is Sauron's official representative, spokesman and proxy. Undoubtedly he is under strict instructions from Sauron himself and has been very carefully "coached".

Even in all his travels I'm sure Aragorn had never encountered the Mouth of Sauron, so I would simply say that when Aragorn made his statement "Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken," he simply hadn't anticipated a situation where an emissary of Sauron would be discussing terms with the Lords of the West. The only slight problem then is that Aragorn's statement implies that Sauron himself never uses his name - still, just because Sauron hasn't used it in the past doesn't mean he can't start using it now. Aragorn's statement should be interpreted as generally true - but it shouldn't be considered some kind of prophecy, as in "Never ever in the future will Sauron permit the use of his name".

I do have to wonder, what name did Sauron use when dealing with the Easterlings and Southrons?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

I do have to wonder, what name did Sauron use when dealing with the Easterlings and Southrons?

Since Sauron would have been a fixture in the cultures of both peoples for long years, I'd think he would have had a dedicated name in their languages. Maybe something meaning 'dark god', or 'black king'.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ibrin

Whether or not any of his servants or slaves actually DID know his true name would not prevent Sauron from issuing orders against it being spoken or written.

Edict From The Top #456176
"We, the Lord of the Rings, Lord of Barad-dûr, Núrnen and Gorgoroth, Liege-lord of Dol Guldur, Supreme God-King of Khand, Rhûn, Near and Far Harad and by right of all Middle-earth, known to Our subordinates as The (Great) Eye, He, The Top, etc., hereby expressly forbid all Our loyal subjects, under severest penalty, to use in speech or writing Our True Name, which we will not reveal here as it's none of their business.
Given at Our chancellery in Barad-dûr, through Our trusted secretary, the Mouth of ******, T.A. 2951."

Orcs, Nazgûl, Trolls, Variags, Easterlings, Haradrim etc.: "???"

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Edict From The Top #456176
"We, the Lord of the Rings, Lord of Barad-dûr, Núrnen and Gorgoroth, Liege-lord of Dol Guldur, Supreme God-King of Khand, Rhûn, Near and Far Harad and by right of all Middle-earth, known to Our subordinates as The (Great) Eye, He, The Top, etc., hereby expressly forbid all Our loyal subjects, under severest penalty, to use in speech or writing Our True Name, which we will not reveal here as it's none of their business.
Given at Our chancellery in Barad-dûr, through Our trusted secretary, the Mouth of ******, T.A. 2951."

Orcs, Nazgûl, Trolls, Variags, Easterlings, Haradrim etc.: "???"

LOL! It's funny -- and to a sick mind, entirely too possible, sad to say. You should hear the stories that my "stepmother" used to tell about her family -- Gospel Truth, according to her. We found that not only wasn't a word of it true, but the enormity of what she and earlier generations of her family had lied about was truly stunning. As Sauron was certainly a Master Manipulator and Base Deceiver far beyond anything she could have imagined, the degree of prevarication of which he was capable must have been so profound, it would have completely befuddled any poor mortal mind. And it surely would have looked insane to boot.