The Names of Sauron

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, there was also the Eye, which I don't know if it transmitted sound or not. If not though, as you say the Mouth's entourage were witnesses, and would have been happy to inform their Master of the Mouth's impropriety.

Last line of defense:
Eye? What Eye? I take it you don't mean PJ's olympic fire, so apart from the palantír and Sauron's searching spirit/will, was there ever any unmetaphorical Eye scrying from Barad-dûr? (Yeah, I've read that thread...)
But as you say I said above, the point is mute, so you're probably right.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

For myself, I have always assumed that everything said about Sauron in LotR is filtered through Hobbits, because they were the ones who wrote the book (according to Tolkien's authorial conceit). Gandalf, for instance, is most often called Gandalf, even though his name among the Elves is Mithrandir (none of whom call him that until Lothlorien, if I recall correctly), Tharkun among the Dwarves (who never call him that), etc. Gandalf is the name the Hobbits knew best for him, and thus is the name that shows up most in the book they wrote that was the chronicle of the War.

Why Sauron would not let any of his servants speak or write his proper name seems rather peculiar, until one considers the power Tolkien ascribes to words in his mythos. There are many beliefs in the so-called real world that ascribe tremendous power and control to knowing another person's true name. Again, if I'm remembering correctly (I have no books at hand, so I'm winging it), the King of the Nazgul learned "black arts" from Sauron, and in sorcery, the knowledge of Sauron's true name, its utterance or its inscription, could permit a kind of magic to be used against him. He would not want anyone, especially his servants and slaves, to have even a chance of interfering with his power by such a means, even if it failed. So, the possibility that The Mouth actually used "Sauron," even though He Himself hated it, would have been preferable to using His true name. It is a small price to pay, allowing this servant to use the name His enemies know best when dealing with them as His ambassador.

Just some things I've thought for a while.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

There are many beliefs in the so-called real world that ascribe tremendous power and control to knowing another person's true name. Again, if I'm remembering correctly (I have no books at hand, so I'm winging it), the King of the Nazgul learned "black arts" from Sauron, and in sorcery, the knowledge of Sauron's true name, its utterance or its inscription, could permit a kind of magic to be used against him. He would not want anyone, especially his servants and slaves, to have even a chance of interfering with his power by such a means, even if it failed. So, the possibility that The Mouth actually used "Sauron," even though He Himself hated it, would have been preferable to using His true name. It is a small price to pay, allowing this servant to use the name His enemies know best when dealing with them as His ambassador.

Good point - but what exactly was Sauron's 'true name'? The problem with Mairon or Sairon is that both are Quenya names, given by the Elves, and as such secondary. His magical true name, the one that would give somebody power over him, would probably have been Valarin or in some even remoter Language of Creation (known only to Ilúvatar?), so there's little chance that The Mouth or anybody else in Middle-earth in the Third Age (except maybe the Istari) knew or remembered it.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

If I'm recalling the HoME books correctly, somewhere, Tolkien said that originally, none of the Ainur had names among themselves, because they spoke from mind to mind and thus recognized one another without the need for names as we think of them. That would make perfect sense, since language and speech is a convention of the physical world. While words were the delight of Manwe, I doubt very much that it was a delight he had until he entered Ea; language was the chief characteristic of an incarnate being, and until they themselves incarnated within the physical world, the Valar would have had no need for it. The Valar made their own language before the awakening of the Elves in anticipation their coming -- and even then, the Elves didn't care much for the sound of Valarin. Manawenuz became Manwe to the Elves, Ulluboz became Ulmo, Ibrîniðilpathânezel became Telperion, etc. (sorry for the lack of special characters; I still don't know how to do them via the html keyboard ). If they made names for themselves during this period, Sauron's first spoken name would have been in Valarin, but I don't believe it's ever mentioned; not a whole lot of Valarin words are known. Especially if it was a name he chose for himself, this would have been Sauron's "truest" spoken name, I should think, but very few people outside the Ainur might know what it was.

Whether or not any of his servants or slaves actually DID know his true name would not prevent Sauron from issuing orders against it being spoken or written. That he could not imagine anyone wanting to destroy the Ring shows that he had the kind of twisted mind that always believes his enemies are planning to do what he himself would do. He would think it necessary to prevent his name from being used against him because once he had his Ring and his power back, he would certainly use any knowledge of his enemies' true names against them.

Y'know, I think I know WAY too many people with that kind of dysfunctional mindset.... *sigh*

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

what exactly was Sauron's 'true name'? The problem with Mairon or Sairon is that both are Quenya names, given by the Elves, and as such secondary. His magical true name, the one that would give somebody power over him, would probably have been Valarin or in some even remoter Language of Creation (known only to Ilúvatar?), so there's little chance that The Mouth or anybody else in Middle-earth in the Third Age (except maybe the Istari) knew or remembered it.

I think that all the names of the ainur that we know aren't "true" names. Maybe they didn't have names as we see them before the creation of Ea. It's this abstractish thing that's hard to explain, but you can know a person without knowing their name. It's a bit like Entish, I guess - like Treebeard calles orcs a list of well-deserved names, but without actually saying any Name. Maybe Melkor was known as "the greatest after the greatest" (greatest meaning Eru). Many of the names of the ainur represent their role in making Arda, or in their "everyday job". Quite a lot of names have actual meanings, and are given/taken for a reason. However, there's a difference between a Name, and a description. For example, "Gilthoniel - Kindler of Stars" is Varda's job (ie her description), but it became one of her Names (probably because it was used by many Eruhini). A description could be applied to a number of people, but a Name is something unique. You don't need to know the Name in order to recognize a person, if I only know his/her "description". Also, each person has a certain assosiation in my mind, and I suppose in others' too: it's as if you show Treebeard an orc and he thinks right away...whatever he thought of them. As soon as you hear the description, you can link it with the assosiation, and know the person without ever using the Name.
Just to sumarize all my babble: I don't think that the ainur had actual Names before Ea. They probably knew each other by assosiations, and their Names were descriptions attached to them by Eruhini. Considering the fact that they could get a lot closer in thoughts than we can, this theory is very probable. It's not like a chat forum: *Hi Manwe, Yavanna speaking. Aule told me...* Suppose we could communicate with thoughts - I think I'd recogize a person by who he is, not his/her Name. (like talking with concepts, maybe?)

PS: This is my opinion, that's based on my thoughts. I haven't found a counterargument to that in those Tolkien books that I've read - which isn't very much.

PPS: The Ainulindale and Valaquenta in The Sil use the names given to the ainur later on, to save the trouble of speaking Entish with English words

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that all the names of the ainur that we know aren't "true" names. Maybe they didn't have names as we see them before the creation of Ea. It's this abstractish thing that's hard to explain, but you can know a person without knowing their name.

I fully agree with you. Even Tolkien (in Letter #211) said

The Valar had no language of their own, not needing one, they had no 'true' names, only identities, and their names were conferred on them by the Elves.

So, I'd say you hit the nail right on the proverbial head.

As to the other bit, it's a theme in other literature as well - for example "The Lensman" series (siFi) by EE Smith. In that case the controlling races, The Arisians & Eddoreans (beings with "Minds of Power"), had "symbols", not true names which were mental shorthands for the life essence of each being.

[Galadriel55]

Speakig of other literature, I've recently been forced by the school (!!! ) to read The Chrysalids, and there you have people comunicating with thoughts, and they know who they're talking to, but they don't know anything about the person, and haven't met once in their lives.

[Galin]

Tolkien did change his mind after letter 211 however, with respect to the Valar having a language (they did), and Valarin Arǭmēz for example, was said to be a name adapted to Quenya as Orome, and to Sindarin as Araw.

'The Eldar,' he says, 'now take the name to signify "horn-blowing" or "horn-blower"; but to the Valar it had no such meaning. Now the names that we have for the Valar or the Maiar, whether adapted from the Valarin or translated, are not right names but titles, referring to some function or character of the person; for though the Valar have right names, they do not reveal them.

Save only in the case of Orome. For it is said in the histories of the most ancient days of the Quendi that, when Orome appeared among them, and at length some dared to approach him, they asked him his name, and he answered: Orome. Then they asked him what that signified, and again he answered: Orome. To me only is it given; for I am Orome. Yet the titles that he bore were many and glorious; but he withheld them at that time, that the Quendi should not be afraid.'

JRRT, Quendi And Eldar