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#1 | |
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
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#2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
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If I'm recalling the HoME books correctly, somewhere, Tolkien said that originally, none of the Ainur had names among themselves, because they spoke from mind to mind and thus recognized one another without the need for names as we think of them. That would make perfect sense, since language and speech is a convention of the physical world. While words were the delight of Manwe, I doubt very much that it was a delight he had until he entered Ea; language was the chief characteristic of an incarnate being, and until they themselves incarnated within the physical world, the Valar would have had no need for it. The Valar made their own language before the awakening of the Elves in anticipation their coming -- and even then, the Elves didn't care much for the sound of Valarin. Manawenuz became Manwe to the Elves, Ulluboz became Ulmo, Ibrīnišilpathānezel became Telperion, etc. (sorry for the lack of special characters; I still don't know how to do them via the html keyboard
![]() Whether or not any of his servants or slaves actually DID know his true name would not prevent Sauron from issuing orders against it being spoken or written. That he could not imagine anyone wanting to destroy the Ring shows that he had the kind of twisted mind that always believes his enemies are planning to do what he himself would do. He would think it necessary to prevent his name from being used against him because once he had his Ring and his power back, he would certainly use any knowledge of his enemies' true names against them. Y'know, I think I know WAY too many people with that kind of dysfunctional mindset.... *sigh*
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. John Stewart Mill Last edited by Ibrīnišilpathānezel; 01-31-2010 at 07:41 PM. Reason: thought of something else |
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#3 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,513
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Just to sumarize all my babble: I don't think that the ainur had actual Names before Ea. They probably knew each other by assosiations, and their Names were descriptions attached to them by Eruhini. Considering the fact that they could get a lot closer in thoughts than we can, this theory is very probable. It's not like a chat forum: *Hi Manwe, Yavanna speaking. Aule told me...* ![]() PS: This is my opinion, that's based on my thoughts. I haven't found a counterargument to that in those Tolkien books that I've read - which isn't very much. PPS: The Ainulindale and Valaquenta in The Sil use the names given to the ainur later on, to save the trouble of speaking Entish with English words ![]()
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#4 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 145
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As to the other bit, it's a theme in other literature as well - for example "The Lensman" series (siFi) by EE Smith. In that case the controlling races, The Arisians & Eddoreans (beings with "Minds of Power"), had "symbols", not true names which were mental shorthands for the life essence of each being. |
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#5 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,513
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Speakig of other literature, I've recently been forced by the school (!!!
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#6 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,036
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Tolkien did change his mind after letter 211 however, with respect to the Valar having a language (they did), and Valarin Arǭmēz for example, was said to be a name adapted to Quenya as Orome, and to Sindarin as Araw.
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Last edited by Galin; 01-12-2011 at 09:00 PM. |
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#7 | ||
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,928
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It would only be once they entered the physical world of Eä that they would have a need for a language, as that would be when they could start becoming incarnate, and would need to (or more likely, just choose to, since they do literally have the whole of time to try new things) start using a language.
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Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place
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#8 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,513
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When Aragorn says that the true name of Sauron cannot be written or spoken, what does he mean by true name? Even if he had a true name, Aragorn wouldn't know it!
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#9 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,036
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To me this is quite different from the later conception: at some point the Valar have their own language, and: '... for though the Valar have right names, they do not reveal them.' (save Orome and so on). |
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