The Names of Sauron

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Was it indeed? Unlike what Peter Jackson wants us to think, the Morannon was about 100 miles from Barad-dûr. Sauron could, of course, have observed the parley in his palantír (and he very likely would have), but as far as I remember, the Stones don't transmit sound, and The Mouth was probably facing away from him, so no lip-reading.

Well, the main point is, I think, that the Mouth would just not dare to speak of Sauron like that in any case, unless he was really full of himself (which he probably was, but then, he was also intelligent enough not to get himself killed. Also, from the text we get the impression that he most likely spent half of his life by flattering Sauron - just take into account that he had really high status, if Sauron won, the Mouth would basically be close to being the second most powerful being in Middle-Earth - if we dismiss the Nazgul on the basis that they were basically still slaves, without entirely free will). In any case, he makes the impression of a total Sauron freak - just listen to him. If anybody is totally out of his mind and worships Sauron beyond anything, it's him. Total lunatic. He would never make jokes about his master. Apart from that, he seems to be a terrible showoff. Showing off his utter loyalty, that is. I mean, forgetting your own name and calling yourself "Mouth of Sauron" instead is enough of a proof.

By the way, good observation about the likely "religious taboo" status of Sauron's name among his own people. I have been thinking along the same lines. "Thou shalt not use the name of thy Lord" is most likely second or third commandment for the Mordorites as well.

Yes of course, but isn't it fun?

It indeed is, and that's why I am not going to get people away with cheap comments like "Aragorn was misinformed" Because I really think they are "easy way to solve the problem", and, let's face it, they are unlikely. If anybody knew anything about Sauron or whatever related, all this "high knowledge", it would be the Wise, a few other people like Denethor and then Aragorn. He is more likely to get things right (particularly in this area) than 99,9% of other inhabitants of Middle-Earth (that is, of the Western people).

The misinterpretation on the part of writers is at least a bit more sound argument - I could go with that one. Still, aren't there any other ideas? I am sure we are easily running out of possibilities, but I am just trying to get the best out of people

(And for that matter, even though I sound like dismissing them, I highly appreciate all the comments here this far - that's what I have been looking for, after all!)

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It indeed is, and that's why I am not going to get people away with cheap comments like "Aragorn was misinformed" Because I really think they are "easy way to solve the problem", and, let's face it, they are unlikely. If anybody knew anything about Sauron or whatever related, all this "high knowledge", it would be the Wise, a few other people like Denethor and then Aragorn. He is more likely to get things right (particularly in this area) than 99,9% of other inhabitants of Middle-Earth (that is, of the Western people).

Well, as has already been suggested, there is the possibility that Aragorn was right but that the Rule only applied to the "rank and file" of Mordor. Someone like The Mouth of Sauron would have been exempt.

In any case, as Sauron's emissary, The Mouth is literally speaking for Sauron. He is no mere servant or slave. He is Sauron's official representative, spokesman and proxy. Undoubtedly he is under strict instructions from Sauron himself and has been very carefully "coached".

Even in all his travels I'm sure Aragorn had never encountered the Mouth of Sauron, so I would simply say that when Aragorn made his statement "Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken," he simply hadn't anticipated a situation where an emissary of Sauron would be discussing terms with the Lords of the West. The only slight problem then is that Aragorn's statement implies that Sauron himself never uses his name - still, just because Sauron hasn't used it in the past doesn't mean he can't start using it now. Aragorn's statement should be interpreted as generally true - but it shouldn't be considered some kind of prophecy, as in "Never ever in the future will Sauron permit the use of his name".

I do have to wonder, what name did Sauron use when dealing with the Easterlings and Southrons?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

I do have to wonder, what name did Sauron use when dealing with the Easterlings and Southrons?

Since Sauron would have been a fixture in the cultures of both peoples for long years, I'd think he would have had a dedicated name in their languages. Maybe something meaning 'dark god', or 'black king'.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ibrin

Whether or not any of his servants or slaves actually DID know his true name would not prevent Sauron from issuing orders against it being spoken or written.

Edict From The Top #456176
"We, the Lord of the Rings, Lord of Barad-dûr, Núrnen and Gorgoroth, Liege-lord of Dol Guldur, Supreme God-King of Khand, Rhûn, Near and Far Harad and by right of all Middle-earth, known to Our subordinates as The (Great) Eye, He, The Top, etc., hereby expressly forbid all Our loyal subjects, under severest penalty, to use in speech or writing Our True Name, which we will not reveal here as it's none of their business.
Given at Our chancellery in Barad-dûr, through Our trusted secretary, the Mouth of ******, T.A. 2951."

Orcs, Nazgûl, Trolls, Variags, Easterlings, Haradrim etc.: "???"

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Edict From The Top #456176
"We, the Lord of the Rings, Lord of Barad-dûr, Núrnen and Gorgoroth, Liege-lord of Dol Guldur, Supreme God-King of Khand, Rhûn, Near and Far Harad and by right of all Middle-earth, known to Our subordinates as The (Great) Eye, He, The Top, etc., hereby expressly forbid all Our loyal subjects, under severest penalty, to use in speech or writing Our True Name, which we will not reveal here as it's none of their business.
Given at Our chancellery in Barad-dûr, through Our trusted secretary, the Mouth of ******, T.A. 2951."

Orcs, Nazgûl, Trolls, Variags, Easterlings, Haradrim etc.: "???"

LOL! It's funny -- and to a sick mind, entirely too possible, sad to say. You should hear the stories that my "stepmother" used to tell about her family -- Gospel Truth, according to her. We found that not only wasn't a word of it true, but the enormity of what she and earlier generations of her family had lied about was truly stunning. As Sauron was certainly a Master Manipulator and Base Deceiver far beyond anything she could have imagined, the degree of prevarication of which he was capable must have been so profound, it would have completely befuddled any poor mortal mind. And it surely would have looked insane to boot.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

One possibility, I note, has not been mentioned. What if Pippin misinterpreted what the Mouth [of Sauron] actually said grammatically. We know that Sindarin has a genitive by apposition. What if Westron does as well? In that case, piŋ Soron (just a suggestion, by no means a serious reconstruction) could be translated "Mouth [of] Sauron". However, adjectival formations are also often formed via apposition; piŋ soron could also mean The Abhorred Mouth. This could have been an "honorary title" -- perhaps but not necessarily a linguistic pun, since Sauron didn't use that name anyway -- which Pippin might easily have misunderstood. (Or Tolkien, if we dare suggest that!)

Also, it is possible that the use of Sauron is an anachronism or alteration; a later translator (or Frodo himself) replaced the real name that the Mouth [of Sauron] used with a name that would be more readily understood. In this case, the Mouth [of Sauron] called himself no such thing, and the problem is solved. This latter explanation seems to me to be the most Tolkienesque.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

There have been similar ideas as to misinterpretation, however the first one (with taking into account the linguistic aspect) is truly original! It depends on the circumstances, of course, but anything is possible. Nevertheless, I must say that of course it was not only Pippin, Frodo or whoever who would be misinterpretating the Mouth's name here. Given the way in which the Red Book has been compiled, many of the facts have been probably carefully checked by the scholarly minds of Bilbo and Frodo and a mistake like that would have likely been uncovered. If somebody misinterpretated the name of some totally random hill in the wilderness, nobody will mind, but the Mouth of Sauron seems to be a known and feared figure, at least among the "high-ranking" people, all of Sauron's direct enemies probably knew of his existence (probably just as well as they knew about the existence of the Nazgul). In that sense, his name had about as large chance to be misinterpretated as, let's say, the name of Cirith Gorgor or that of Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul.

If it were to be said that the name "Mouth of Sauron" is a result of misinterpretation, then the variant I could accept - in this paradigm - would be that it was Tolkien who misinterpretated it, resp. as it were, that the Westron got misinterpretated while being translated into English.