If Denethor hadn't committed suicide

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

It's all looks more complex if he had survived. It looks to me as if Denethor has fallen under the spell of the ring just by knowing about it as Sauman did. But with the end of Sauron and the ring Denethor could have recovered from the spell. In this case he might have changed his view of Aragorn, especially after Aragorn saves Faramir.

This is something I hadn't even considered. Look at Theoden. He was under Saruman's spell and distrusted Gandalf, but by the end of his life the spell had been lifted and he was prepared to do what he felt he had too. He also lost a son, his only son, yet when the poison in his life was removed he recovered. It's possible Denethor could have recovered as Theoden had. After all he despaired in part because that was what Sauron wanted.

If Denethor had survived, without Sauron to show ruin in the palantir anymore could it have been possible for him to recover and embrace Aragorn as his king?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

If Denethor had survived, without Sauron to show ruin in the palantir anymore could it have been possible for him to recover and embrace Aragorn as his king?

To me this seems a highly unlikely scenario. Denethor's antipathy towards Aragorn--"the last of a ragged house, long bereft of lordship and dignity"--goes deeper than just the poisoning of his mind by the Palantír. Indeed, it seems far more the case to me that while Denethor was somewhat solidified in this position by the use of the Palantír, which gave him a sense of doom and of being the only hope of the West--where was that useless Arnorian lordling, anyway, when needed?--his dislike of Aragorn goes deeper. The Appendices certainly suggest that Denethor had no love for Aragorn:

Originally Posted by Appendix A, I, iv

'There was dismay in the City at the departure of Thorongil, and to all men it seemed a great loss, unless it were to Denethor, son of Ecthelion, a man now ripe for the Stewardship, to which after four years he succeeded on the death of his father.

Clearly, Denethor saw his own position endangered by Thorongil then, and was "ripe" for ruling--which I would read to mean not only "ready," but, in this context, "eager." However, the passage has more to say:

Originally Posted by Appendix A, I, iv

Denether II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hears of men and the esteem of his father.

Ouch! Denethor, then, had personal reasons to dislike Aragorn--imagine being made second in your own father's affections? Let's finish quoting this passage, for the sake of completion.

Originally Posted by Appendix A, I, iv

At the time many though that Thornginl had departed before his rival became his master; though indeed Thorongil had never vied with Denethor, nor held himself higher than the servant of his father. And in one matter only were their counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But the was little love between Denethor and Gandalf; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith. Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.

Personally, I take this passage to read that Denethor had figured out Aragorn's identity before he ever used the Palantír. And, really, how would the Palantír have confirmed this? It might have shown that Aragorn was a friend of Elves, a Ranger of the North, and high in their ranks... but the confirmation that he was the Heir of Isildur does not seem to me the sort of thing that the Palantír would have been a great help with.

Consequently, had Denethor survived the Siege of Gondor, I do not think he would ever have welcome Aragorn. Rather, it would only seem to him that Aragorn had, indeed, conspired with Gandalf to supplant him, and that the War of the Ring had been the seized upon pretext. Denethor's position is crystalline-clear: "I am the Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but from the line of Isildur."

Admittedly, these words are spoken in the fury of his last minutes, but they represent Denethor's convinced opinions on the issue, both personally and legally. Personally, he will not submit to Aragorn, defeated by his old rival in his old age. Additionally, he has convinced himself that Pelendur's precedent must still reject the Heir of Arvedui.

To me, it does seem likely that Denethor would not have mounted a resistance. In acknowledgement of the healing of Faramir and seeing the support of the people, Denethor may well (if alive) have stepped down... but I do not think (barring a miracle) it is sensible to think he could ever have accepted Aragorn as king. At best, he would have kept his mouth shut for the sake of a united Gondor and let Faramir's opinions guide those of his children, so that there would not be another "kinstrife" between the Heirs of Elessar and the Heirs of Denethor.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Come to think of it, Denethor was a hypocrite - he felt slighted by being second in his Father's affections behind Thorongil - then he subjected Faramir to the same treatment.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Personally, I take this passage to read that Denethor had figured out Aragorn's identity before he ever used the Palantír. And, really, how would the Palantír have confirmed this? It might have shown that Aragorn was a friend of Elves, a Ranger of the North, and high in their ranks... but the confirmation that he was the Heir of Isildur does not seem to me the sort of thing that the Palantír would have been a great help with.

But Formedacil,you have mentionned all the clues to help Denethor come to this conclusion with certainty!Imagine it;apart from his obvious characteristics,his foe bears that strange ring,which might have seemed quite familiar to a person with Denethor's knowledge of history and eemm..interest to kingship.He comes from a former Dunedain realm,befriends the Elves,is Elrond's foster son and of high rank among the Rangers of the North(whose true ethnological identity I believe was no secret to him either) ...Too many coinsidences,don't you think?

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Erendis

But Formedacil,you have mentionned all the clues to help Denethor come to this conclusion with certainty!Imagine it;apart from his obvious characteristics,his foe bears that strange ring,which might have seemed quite familiar to a person with Denethor's knowledge of history and eemm..interest to kingship.He comes from a former Dunedain realm,befriends the Elves,is Elrond's foster son and of high rank among the Rangers of the North(whose true ethnological identity I believe was no secret to him either) ...Too many coinsidences,don't you think?

It does raise questions like

1. How much was known in Gondor about the Dunedain of the North?

2. Was there any curiosity about the Dunedain of the North in Gondor? Gondor was very much in need of allies at this time.

3. Did anyone other than Denethor guess Thorongil's true origin/identity? It must have been screamingly obvious that Thorongil was of Numenorean descent - so where else could he have come from, other than Umbar? Thorongil's existence certainly implied that there were others like him ... somewhere. Didn't anyone wonder where Thorongil went when he left? Didn't they ever wonder if he'd come back some day?

and most worringly:

4. If Thorongil was advising Ecthelion to be wary of Saruman and to trust instead in Gandalf, then that means that Aragorn had known for quite some time that Saruman was not to be trusted. Why then did Aragorn not advise Gandalf of his suspicions? Gandalf rode into a trap at Isengard because he still trusted Saruman.

Another thing - Thorongil had also served Thengel. Now, that was many years ago, but the people of Rohan seemed most surprised to see Aragorn show up, despite the fact that he had served Thengel. You'd think they'd be used to tall, mysterious guys from the North showing up! Especially when it's the same guy.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

I1. How much was known in Gondor about the Dunedain of the North?

To the vast majority of Gondorians at the time of the war of the Ring, probably not much. It would have been known to their historians that the last king, Arvedui, had died and Arnor so reduced in numbers that his son had not bothered to claim the sceptre.

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

2. Was there any curiosity about the Dunedain of the North in Gondor? Gondor was very much in need of allies at this time.

Certainly they needed help, but they apparently only saw the Rohirrim as allies who would come at their call. The Dúnedain of Arnor had been in the shadows so long they had been forgotten by nearly everyone outside Eriador. Even the Men of Bree, who themselves had once been subjects of the Kingdom of Arnor, didn't realise that the 'Rangers' whom they scorned were the last remnant of the Dúnedain of the North.

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

3. Did anyone other than Denethor guess Thorongil's true origin/identity? It must have been screamingly obvious that Thorongil was of Numenorean descent - so where else could he have come from, other than Umbar? Thorongil's existence certainly implied that there were others like him ... somewhere. Didn't anyone wonder where Thorongil went when he left? Didn't they ever wonder if he'd come back some day?

Aragorn was disguised in some way when he was 'Thorongil', so maybe his bloodline was not as obvious as that. Denethor's interest in him was due to jealousy, so he likely spent more time thinking about Thorongil than the average soldier in Minas Tirith. I'm sure they did wonder why he was leaving, but the last Thorongil was seen, 'his face was towards the Mountains of Shadow'. With the impression that he was going to Mordor, most probably wrote him off for dead.

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

4. If Thorongil was advising Ecthelion to be wary of Saruman and to trust instead in Gandalf, then that means that Aragorn had known for quite some time that Saruman was not to be trusted. Why then did Aragorn not advise Gandalf of his suspicions? Gandalf rode into a trap at Isengard because he still trusted Saruman.

I think Gandalf had shared some of his own concerns about Saruman with Aragorn, such as Saruman's reluctance to act against Dol Guldur. Aragorn completely trusted Gandalf, so it doesn't seem strange to me he would have said such things to Ecthelion, even with nothing more than Gandalf's vague misgivings driving the suspicion.

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

Another thing - Thorongil had also served Thengel. Now, that was many years ago, but the people of Rohan seemed most surprised to see Aragorn show up, despite the fact that he had served Thengel. You'd think they'd be used to tall, mysterious guys from the North showing up! Especially when it's the same guy.

Again, Aragorn was disguised as 'Thorongil'. And would they have necessarily known he was from the North? As you note, also a lot of time had passed. The Tale of Years says that from 2957 through 2980, 'as Thorongil [Aragorn] serves in disguise both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor'. Since Thorongil had appeared in Rohan first, there was a span of more than 38 years before Aragorn showed up in Rohan as himself. Éomer himself wasn't born until 2991. I don't think it's all that remarkable Aragorn wasn't recognised.

[Morwen]

^^ With respect to why no one in Rohan would recognise Aragorn, Appendix B notes that Aragorn as Thorongil served in disguise Thengel and Ecthelion between the years 2957 and 2980 of the Third Age. The next time that he returns to Rohan, at least in an open fashion, is 3019. That's a 39 year gap. Many of the Rohirrim who served with Thorongil have likely either died of old age or in battle. For those who are old enough to remember a person called Thorongil, it is unlikely that they would associate someone Aragorn who appears to be in his prime with another man they had known forty years and more ago. As far as they are concerned Thorongil should either be dead or an old old man.

With respect to the topic at hand I agree with Formendacil's reasoning. Denethor's line about Aragorn coming from a house long bereft of lordship and dignity makes it difficult for me to see him ever being reconciled to Aragorn as his king. He also makes a distinction between himself as a Steward of the House of Anarion and Aragorn who "(e)ven were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur." (The Pyre of Denethor, RotK) Clearly Denethor's position is the longstanding Gondorian one that Isildur and his heirs long ago gave up any right to the throne of Gondor. All of this combined with a personal animosity towards Thorongil/Aragorn makes reconciliation unlikely.

- Cross posted with Inziladun -

[Erendis]

I generally agree with both Inziladun and Morwen ,but still would like to make some adds.


Question 1.

Concerning the existence or not of Isildur's bloodline,for someone as well-educated as Denethor there must have been somes clues in the records of Ondoher's time about Aranarth,since he was the grand-son og the Gondorian king,afterall.

Question 3.

Concerning the term "disguise",I think it was not a physical one,because unless he could have his entire face hidden,indeed everything on Aragorn was not only crying"Numenorian blood",but also "Nobble Numenorian blood".I believe a shady and rumor-like story concerning his origins is more likely to be the disguise,more similar to the "undercover" term.Perhaps stories as ,for example,half Numenorian from the North(Dail maybe?),being spread around the soldiers with his consent,if not willingly by him,is a scenario.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Concerning the term "disguise",I think it was not a physical one,because unless he could have his entire face hidden,indeed everything on Aragorn was not only crying"Numenorian blood",but also "Nobble Numenorian blood".I believe a shady and rumor-like story concerning his origins is more likely to be the disguise,more similar to the "undercover" term.Perhaps stories as ,for example,half Numenorian from the North(Dail maybe?),being spread around the soldiers with his consent,if not willingly by him,is a scenario.

Why not a physical disguise? Perhaps he grew a long beard.
Deceiving the Rohirrim would not have been so difficult anyway. If they recognised Thorongil as a Dúnadan, their assumtion would probably have been that he was of Gondor.
When dealing with the Men of Gondor, I think a physical disguise would have been a necessity, for the reasons you cite. If they knew Thorongil was not from Gondor, yet recognised in him Númenórean lineage, wouldn't that have been counter to Aragorn's purpose in going to Gondor in that manner? He wished to see the state of affairs in Rohan and Minas Tirith, and give the rulers in both places some good advice, once he gained their trust. He did not want to stir any controversy.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Question 1.

Concerning the existence or not of Isildur's bloodline,for someone as well-educated as Denethor there must have been some clues in the records of Ondoher's time about Aranarth,since he was the grand-son of the Gondorian king, after all.

About this... I don't think at all that it would have been unlikely at all for Denethor to have gone through the annals of Eärnil and Eärnur's day to know that Aranarth, son of Arvedui, still lived and headed the remnants of the Northern Dúnedain--it's just that with the waning and vanishing of those remnants in the north, why should anyone assume that an unbroken lineage remained? After all, your default assumption as a Gondorian might be that lineages naturally fail--it happened to them a few times. Additionally, the White Tree which continued to live all through the years of the Stewards after Mardil finally died in 2852, at the end of the Stewardship of Belecthor II. To the Gondorian mind at this time, there will never again be a king. Boromir--hopes of being the next Steward aside--should be taken as a typical Gondorian at the Council of Elrond:

Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond

'I was not sent to beg any boon, but to seek only the meanings of a riddle,' answered Boromir proudly. 'Yet we are hard pressed, and the Sword of Elendil would be a help beyond our hope--if such a thing could indeed return out of the shadows of the past.' He looked at Aragorn and there was doubt in his eyes.

--Emphasis mine.

Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond

'Isildur's Bane is found, you say,' said Boromir. 'I have seen a bright ring in the Halfling's hand; but Isildur perished ere this age of the world began, they say. How do the Wise know this ring is his? And how has it passed down the years, until it is brought hither by so strange a messenger?'

Boromir's question here refers to the Ring, but because of the mention of Isildur, it struck me as appropriate to quote, because he has exactly the same doubts about Aragorn and Isildur's lineage. It is only over the course of the next Book, until his death, that he comes to accept Aragorn fully. And why should he? It's been a millennium since Eärnur returned from the North--victorious over the Witch-King, a brief glimmer of hope in the mid-Third Age before he rode off to Minas Morgûl, never to be seen again. Even granting the longer Númenorean lifespan, which was waning much anyway in that millennium, that's still like someone coming forward today as the Heir of Edmund II Ironside--and out of the wild north, too, not out of a millennium of increasing records and technological certainty, but the complete opposite.

The fact that Denethor thought in the first place that Aragorn might be of Isildur's line and a kingly claimant, on those grounds, can be presented then as proof of his insight and wisdom, in my opinion.