If Denethor hadn't committed suicide

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Erendis

But Formedacil,you have mentionned all the clues to help Denethor come to this conclusion with certainty!Imagine it;apart from his obvious characteristics,his foe bears that strange ring,which might have seemed quite familiar to a person with Denethor's knowledge of history and eemm..interest to kingship.He comes from a former Dunedain realm,befriends the Elves,is Elrond's foster son and of high rank among the Rangers of the North(whose true ethnological identity I believe was no secret to him either) ...Too many coinsidences,don't you think?

It does raise questions like

1. How much was known in Gondor about the Dunedain of the North?

2. Was there any curiosity about the Dunedain of the North in Gondor? Gondor was very much in need of allies at this time.

3. Did anyone other than Denethor guess Thorongil's true origin/identity? It must have been screamingly obvious that Thorongil was of Numenorean descent - so where else could he have come from, other than Umbar? Thorongil's existence certainly implied that there were others like him ... somewhere. Didn't anyone wonder where Thorongil went when he left? Didn't they ever wonder if he'd come back some day?

and most worringly:

4. If Thorongil was advising Ecthelion to be wary of Saruman and to trust instead in Gandalf, then that means that Aragorn had known for quite some time that Saruman was not to be trusted. Why then did Aragorn not advise Gandalf of his suspicions? Gandalf rode into a trap at Isengard because he still trusted Saruman.

Another thing - Thorongil had also served Thengel. Now, that was many years ago, but the people of Rohan seemed most surprised to see Aragorn show up, despite the fact that he had served Thengel. You'd think they'd be used to tall, mysterious guys from the North showing up! Especially when it's the same guy.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

I1. How much was known in Gondor about the Dunedain of the North?

To the vast majority of Gondorians at the time of the war of the Ring, probably not much. It would have been known to their historians that the last king, Arvedui, had died and Arnor so reduced in numbers that his son had not bothered to claim the sceptre.

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

2. Was there any curiosity about the Dunedain of the North in Gondor? Gondor was very much in need of allies at this time.

Certainly they needed help, but they apparently only saw the Rohirrim as allies who would come at their call. The Dúnedain of Arnor had been in the shadows so long they had been forgotten by nearly everyone outside Eriador. Even the Men of Bree, who themselves had once been subjects of the Kingdom of Arnor, didn't realise that the 'Rangers' whom they scorned were the last remnant of the Dúnedain of the North.

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

3. Did anyone other than Denethor guess Thorongil's true origin/identity? It must have been screamingly obvious that Thorongil was of Numenorean descent - so where else could he have come from, other than Umbar? Thorongil's existence certainly implied that there were others like him ... somewhere. Didn't anyone wonder where Thorongil went when he left? Didn't they ever wonder if he'd come back some day?

Aragorn was disguised in some way when he was 'Thorongil', so maybe his bloodline was not as obvious as that. Denethor's interest in him was due to jealousy, so he likely spent more time thinking about Thorongil than the average soldier in Minas Tirith. I'm sure they did wonder why he was leaving, but the last Thorongil was seen, 'his face was towards the Mountains of Shadow'. With the impression that he was going to Mordor, most probably wrote him off for dead.

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

4. If Thorongil was advising Ecthelion to be wary of Saruman and to trust instead in Gandalf, then that means that Aragorn had known for quite some time that Saruman was not to be trusted. Why then did Aragorn not advise Gandalf of his suspicions? Gandalf rode into a trap at Isengard because he still trusted Saruman.

I think Gandalf had shared some of his own concerns about Saruman with Aragorn, such as Saruman's reluctance to act against Dol Guldur. Aragorn completely trusted Gandalf, so it doesn't seem strange to me he would have said such things to Ecthelion, even with nothing more than Gandalf's vague misgivings driving the suspicion.

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

Another thing - Thorongil had also served Thengel. Now, that was many years ago, but the people of Rohan seemed most surprised to see Aragorn show up, despite the fact that he had served Thengel. You'd think they'd be used to tall, mysterious guys from the North showing up! Especially when it's the same guy.

Again, Aragorn was disguised as 'Thorongil'. And would they have necessarily known he was from the North? As you note, also a lot of time had passed. The Tale of Years says that from 2957 through 2980, 'as Thorongil [Aragorn] serves in disguise both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor'. Since Thorongil had appeared in Rohan first, there was a span of more than 38 years before Aragorn showed up in Rohan as himself. Éomer himself wasn't born until 2991. I don't think it's all that remarkable Aragorn wasn't recognised.

[Morwen]

^^ With respect to why no one in Rohan would recognise Aragorn, Appendix B notes that Aragorn as Thorongil served in disguise Thengel and Ecthelion between the years 2957 and 2980 of the Third Age. The next time that he returns to Rohan, at least in an open fashion, is 3019. That's a 39 year gap. Many of the Rohirrim who served with Thorongil have likely either died of old age or in battle. For those who are old enough to remember a person called Thorongil, it is unlikely that they would associate someone Aragorn who appears to be in his prime with another man they had known forty years and more ago. As far as they are concerned Thorongil should either be dead or an old old man.

With respect to the topic at hand I agree with Formendacil's reasoning. Denethor's line about Aragorn coming from a house long bereft of lordship and dignity makes it difficult for me to see him ever being reconciled to Aragorn as his king. He also makes a distinction between himself as a Steward of the House of Anarion and Aragorn who "(e)ven were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur." (The Pyre of Denethor, RotK) Clearly Denethor's position is the longstanding Gondorian one that Isildur and his heirs long ago gave up any right to the throne of Gondor. All of this combined with a personal animosity towards Thorongil/Aragorn makes reconciliation unlikely.

- Cross posted with Inziladun -

[Erendis]

I generally agree with both Inziladun and Morwen ,but still would like to make some adds.


Question 1.

Concerning the existence or not of Isildur's bloodline,for someone as well-educated as Denethor there must have been somes clues in the records of Ondoher's time about Aranarth,since he was the grand-son og the Gondorian king,afterall.

Question 3.

Concerning the term "disguise",I think it was not a physical one,because unless he could have his entire face hidden,indeed everything on Aragorn was not only crying"Numenorian blood",but also "Nobble Numenorian blood".I believe a shady and rumor-like story concerning his origins is more likely to be the disguise,more similar to the "undercover" term.Perhaps stories as ,for example,half Numenorian from the North(Dail maybe?),being spread around the soldiers with his consent,if not willingly by him,is a scenario.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Concerning the term "disguise",I think it was not a physical one,because unless he could have his entire face hidden,indeed everything on Aragorn was not only crying"Numenorian blood",but also "Nobble Numenorian blood".I believe a shady and rumor-like story concerning his origins is more likely to be the disguise,more similar to the "undercover" term.Perhaps stories as ,for example,half Numenorian from the North(Dail maybe?),being spread around the soldiers with his consent,if not willingly by him,is a scenario.

Why not a physical disguise? Perhaps he grew a long beard.
Deceiving the Rohirrim would not have been so difficult anyway. If they recognised Thorongil as a Dúnadan, their assumtion would probably have been that he was of Gondor.
When dealing with the Men of Gondor, I think a physical disguise would have been a necessity, for the reasons you cite. If they knew Thorongil was not from Gondor, yet recognised in him Númenórean lineage, wouldn't that have been counter to Aragorn's purpose in going to Gondor in that manner? He wished to see the state of affairs in Rohan and Minas Tirith, and give the rulers in both places some good advice, once he gained their trust. He did not want to stir any controversy.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Why not a physical disguise? Perhaps he grew a long beard.

No wonder why Arwen gave in after he left Gondor!
But why would he cause controversy by not hiding he was of Numenorian lineage?Whould he have been the first or last offspring of a mixed couple-although since the Kin-strife it might have been a taboo,so many years after that almost none would have been bothered-?Didn't Gondor have merchants?Travelers?How impossible scenario is a wanderer son wanting to serve his ancestors' lands?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Erendis

But why would he cause controversy by not hiding he was of Numenorian lineage?Whould he have been the first or last offspring of a mixed couple-although since the Kin-strife it might have been a taboo,so many years after that almost none would have been bothered-?Didn't Gondor have merchants?Travelers?How impossible scenario is a wanderer son have wants to serve his ancestors' lands?

It seems to me that all the remaining Dúnedain in Middle-earth were confined to two areas: Eriador and Gondor. If Aragorn had been known to have been of the Dúnedain, where could he reasonably have said that he came from, if not the North? If he claimed to be from 'outside' and was obviously Númeórean by looks, I think that would have raised some questions.
If he claimed anywhere in Gondor as his origin, that claim could have been investigated. I can well see Denethor 'checking Thorongil's references', perhaps with the hope of catching him in a lie.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If he claimed anywhere in Gondor as his origin, that claim could have been investigated. I can well see Denethor 'checking Thorongil's references', perhaps with the hope of catching him in a lie.

Perhaps Denethor did search Gondor...

...and that's why he was extra-suspicious of Thorongil's origins, when no one else seems to have been. And what could Denethor make of it, if Thorongil was from the North? That's no reason not to serve Gondor or be untrustworthy... but, if Denethor's suspicions were right, and Thorongil was making a play for the throne, revealing that he was Arnorian might be the first step to Thorongil revealing he was the Heir of Isildur. Far better, in such a case, to abet the idea that Thorongil was from an obscure corner of Gondor--Andrast, maybe--than to put the idea in people's heads that Thorongil could actually supplant him.

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If he claimed to be from 'outside' and was obviously Númeórean by looks, I think that would have raised some questions.

Would it?I think that the beloved Thorongilya was not the most open to questions around,especially when we see that if he wanted something to be kept secret,he wouldn't reveal it for any reason.In fact,not even Ecthelion,whom he respected so much,having a clear identity of his true origins would be a surprise to me.

And miraculously,for once again we do not regard to the main subgect of the thread!

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It seems to me that all the remaining Dúnedain in Middle-earth were confined to two areas: Eriador and Gondor. If Aragorn had been known to have been of the Dúnedain, where could he reasonably have said that he came from, if not the North? If he claimed to be from 'outside' and was obviously Númeórean by looks, I think that would have raised some questions.
If he claimed anywhere in Gondor as his origin, that claim could have been investigated. I can well see Denethor 'checking Thorongil's references', perhaps with the hope of catching him in a lie.

Denethor certainly had suspicious about Thorongil and he must have wondered where he came from. Since I raised the question about Aragorn's "obviously Numenorean appearance" I will add that I don't just mean Aragorn's hair, skin or eye colour but also his height. He was extremely tall.

One reason why Aragorn can't have had much of a physical disguise is that his resemblance to Denethor was noted at the time. Given that Aragorn played the part of Thorongil for 23 years, it's hard to think that he could have maintained a physical disguise for that long! I think the "disguise" just refers to his assumed name and background.

I can understand why a young fellow like Eomer doesn't recognise Aragorn, since he wasn't born in the time of "Thorongil". Even Theoden was fairly young at the time but in Gondor some people were relatively long-lived.

Outside of Minas Tirith, Gondor was fairly sparsely populated. Aside from Pelagir and Dol Amroth there weren't many major 'population centres'. Aragorn wasn't blonde-haired or blue-eyed so he would have had a hard time passing himself off as one of the Rohirrim! Clearly he was Numenorean - so not from Rohan or Laketown etc. Denethor (and for that matter Ecthelion) must have had a pretty good idea of where Thorongil was from. Thorongil's championing of Gandalf might have been another indicator, since Gandalf spent most of his time in the North. Perhaps some rumours of the Northern Dunedain were heard in Gondor, but Aragorn must have been the first proof of their existence, unless one of his more recent ancestors had also spent time in Gondor.

As for the original question - I suspect that Aragorn would have been very sensitive to Denethor's feelings. Perhaps he might have come up with some way for Denethor to save face? Maybe Denethor would have accepted some role like "Prince of Ithilien". Aragorn would have no doubt tried as hard as possible for Denethor to retain his dignity and usefulness. Otherwise Denethor would just have become a thorn in Aragorn's side - a bitter old man with little to live for since he would regard King Elessar as an upstart who had robbed the rightful family of their legacy.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Erendis

Question 1.

Concerning the existence or not of Isildur's bloodline,for someone as well-educated as Denethor there must have been some clues in the records of Ondoher's time about Aranarth,since he was the grand-son of the Gondorian king, after all.

About this... I don't think at all that it would have been unlikely at all for Denethor to have gone through the annals of Eärnil and Eärnur's day to know that Aranarth, son of Arvedui, still lived and headed the remnants of the Northern Dúnedain--it's just that with the waning and vanishing of those remnants in the north, why should anyone assume that an unbroken lineage remained? After all, your default assumption as a Gondorian might be that lineages naturally fail--it happened to them a few times. Additionally, the White Tree which continued to live all through the years of the Stewards after Mardil finally died in 2852, at the end of the Stewardship of Belecthor II. To the Gondorian mind at this time, there will never again be a king. Boromir--hopes of being the next Steward aside--should be taken as a typical Gondorian at the Council of Elrond:

Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond

'I was not sent to beg any boon, but to seek only the meanings of a riddle,' answered Boromir proudly. 'Yet we are hard pressed, and the Sword of Elendil would be a help beyond our hope--if such a thing could indeed return out of the shadows of the past.' He looked at Aragorn and there was doubt in his eyes.

--Emphasis mine.

Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond

'Isildur's Bane is found, you say,' said Boromir. 'I have seen a bright ring in the Halfling's hand; but Isildur perished ere this age of the world began, they say. How do the Wise know this ring is his? And how has it passed down the years, until it is brought hither by so strange a messenger?'

Boromir's question here refers to the Ring, but because of the mention of Isildur, it struck me as appropriate to quote, because he has exactly the same doubts about Aragorn and Isildur's lineage. It is only over the course of the next Book, until his death, that he comes to accept Aragorn fully. And why should he? It's been a millennium since Eärnur returned from the North--victorious over the Witch-King, a brief glimmer of hope in the mid-Third Age before he rode off to Minas Morgûl, never to be seen again. Even granting the longer Númenorean lifespan, which was waning much anyway in that millennium, that's still like someone coming forward today as the Heir of Edmund II Ironside--and out of the wild north, too, not out of a millennium of increasing records and technological certainty, but the complete opposite.

The fact that Denethor thought in the first place that Aragorn might be of Isildur's line and a kingly claimant, on those grounds, can be presented then as proof of his insight and wisdom, in my opinion.