Did Maedhros kill Laughter?

[Urwen]

I mean couldn't he have killed Maeglin,which would remove any stain on soul of my namesake's cousin.Or Uldor for that matter-two damn traitors!

But nooo.He had to kill Lalaith,Nienor and Gorlim.It's true that Gorlim is a traitor too,and that Nienor committed sin,but lo and behold! Gorlim and Nienor both did it for LOVE! And Morgoth just had to kill those three innocent souls instead of two REAL traitors,which are Maeglin and Uldor! I mean,only psycho could do such a thing!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I mean couldn't he have killed Maeglin,which would remove any stain on soul of my namesake's cousin.Or Uldor for that matter-two damn traitors!

But nooo.He had to kill Lalaith,Nienor and Gorlim.It's true that Gorlim is a traitor too,and that Nienor committed sin,but lo and behold! Gorlim and Nienor both did it for LOVE! And Morgoth just had to kill those three innocent souls instead of two REAL traitors,which are Maeglin and Uldor! I mean,only psycho could do such a thing!

So you're saying you don't think Morgoth was all that nice?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Urwen

And Morgoth just had to kill those three innocent souls instead of two REAL traitors,which are Maeglin and Uldor! I mean,only psycho could do such a thing!

Other way round: only a psycho would kill people who worked for him rather than his enemies, don't you think?

[the phantom]

Let's stop the wild theories and rebuttals for a moment and examine this thing logically. If you do, I believe you will come to the same conclusion that I did about this.

Maedhros literally killed Lalaith. Not indirectly, but with his own flesh.

Follow me through some points here-
1) Morgoth's plague was a specific response to the growing power of Maedhros.
2) Morgoth was seriously evil. If some sort of evil plan occurs to me, it's a given it occurred to him.
3) The plague was not conjured from nothing. Melkor could not create life or matter. He could only take existing things and corrupt them.
4) The plague had to have some sort of source- i.e. a biological "patient zero". Some animal or bit of flesh had to be Morgoth's test tube, which he then placed somewhere in the north and the sickness spread from it.

Given those facts, does any diabolical idea spring to mind?

No?

Well, perhaps you're not as sick and twisted as I am by nature, so I'll make this easy for you. Given that it was the power of Maedhros that Melkor was striking against, wouldn't it be absolutely perfect to use Maedhros as the engine of destruction?

"But Phantom- Morgoth couldn't get to Maedhros, and Tolkien never said he was sick!"

Ah, but you're forgetting that not every bit of Maedhros was accounted for. What about the hand he left behind hanging upon the cliffs of Morgoth's fortress!!

Given the facts, you can't tell me that Morgoth didn't have this idea. The hand was infected and Morgoth had his servants plant it near some populated area around Hithlum and boom- horrible death brought about by Maedhros's own flesh! He brought doom upon Lalaith, literally with his own hand.

[Urwen]

Bravo! Nice conclusion!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Bravo! Nice conclusion!

You would think so, wouldn't you?

...So we're still not finished with the lizard. Like I said, why is it okay for Lalaith to annoy Morgoth?

Urwen? Got an answer for that one?

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Other way round: only a psycho would kill people who worked for him rather than his enemies, don't you think?

Indeed. First you're angry Maedhros failed to put the welfare of a single child (whom he probably didn't know existed) ahead of all else. Now you're shocked that the main villain prefers to kill off the good guys rather than people on his own side.

Forgive me for saying this, Urwen, but you do appear to have a rather curious approach to reading fiction. It seems like you expect all the characters in the book– no matter their roles– to have exactly the same sympathies that you do.

[Pitchwife]

Ingenious and elegant solution, phantom! The only (very minor) problem I can see with it is the explicit statement in the Narn that the plague was spread by "an ill wind from the North", which seems to indicate that the germ was transported from Morgoth's domain either by the air itself or by some intermediate airborne carrier.

Could it be that Lalaith's famous pet geese* played a fatal role here? It was in autumn that the plague came, the time when birds migrate south. Would it be too far fetched to suppose that the geese caught the disease in the far North and brought it to Dor-lomin on their way south? And remember that late autumn/early winter is also the time when geese are butchered and eaten (against the fervent protests of Lalaith, I'm sure; and what tragic irony that she fell victim herself to the plague that could have been avoided if her protests had been heeded...**)! Presumably, Húrin's people didn't understand the connection between consumption of goose meat and infection and thus mistakenly attributed the epidemy to the wind itself rather than the birds who sailed on it.

If we attempt to reconcile this idea with your theory about Maedhros' hand, we face the problem that geese are vegetarians and wouldn't have touched dead flesh - but ducks would (as I can testify from first-hand observation of the four who keep our garden slug-free); or if they didn't nibble on the hand itself they could have eaten worms which had previously fed on the hand. Maybe Lalaith's geese were actually ducks and were mistranslated by Aelfwine (or possibly Bilbo, depending on which version of the translator conceit you choose to follow) rendering Dírhavel's Sindarin original in his native tongue? After all, both belong to the family Anatidae, and I've met people who couldn't tell one from the other...

* (mentioned only in an obscure textual variant to the Narn which I can't find at the moment, but I suppose Nerwen might be able to help me out...)
**(Alternatively, maybe her protests were heeded after all, but she was the first to catch the disease by cuddling those dratted birds all the time...)

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Given the facts, you can't tell me that Morgoth didn't have this idea. The hand was infected and Morgoth had his servants plant it near some populated area around Hithlum and boom- horrible death brought about by Maedhros's own flesh! He brought doom upon Lalaith, literally with his own hand.

So are you saying that Lalaith came into contact with this nasty rotting hand () and what? How did the disease spread? I seriously hope she didn't touch it or eat it...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Loslote

So are you saying that Lalaith came into contact with this nasty rotting hand () and what? How did the disease spread? I seriously hope she didn't touch it or eat it...

A-ha! Now you have nailed it. She found it and ate it... eurgh... but, you know, the youngsters and their habits sometimes, improper education and all that... But then, such a disgusting deed just had to be punished. I mean, eating a high Elven Lord's hand? A certain werewolf got killed for less than that.

[Urwen]

Once again: DON"T INSULT LALAITH!

Really,how many times must I repeat this?!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Maybe Lalaith's geese were actually ducks and were mistranslated by Aelfwine (or possibly Bilbo, depending on which version of the translator conceit you choose to follow) rendering Dírhavel's Sindarin original in his native tongue? After all, both belong to the family Anatidae, and I've met people who couldn't tell one from the other...

An interesting point, Pitch. A number of species with "goose" in their common names are actually considered ducks by taxonomists.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

* (mentioned only in an obscure textual variant to the Narn which I can't find at the moment, but I suppose Nerwen might be able to help me out...)

The variant to which you're referring is to be found in HoMe, Vol XVI. However, though the geese do appear, note that it represents a radically different version of the text, especially regarding the effects of the disease, so that it's very hard to fit it into the story as we now know it. Nonetheless, it does represent a fascinating curiosity for Tolkien scholars– who would have thought that at one point JRRT intended to have Beleriand overrun by plague-infected cannibal zombies?

Originally Posted by Urwen

Once again: DON"T INSULT LALAITH!

Really,how many times must I repeat this?!

But it's so much fun!