WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I lack faith in that as well, at least not in this village. There are quite a few people here I wouldn't at all expect to bow to peer pressure.

Well definitely they wouldn't once it is called out for what it is, but had things proceeded unhindered I think it would be a fair bet that at least half would follow the common logic. I would most likely do so myself, as I would consider it in bad taste to go against what is perceived as the proper balance of things etc.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Yeah, I suspected as much. It's a neat way to create a suspect, isn't it? But I do mean create, and not find, since it's very much a matter of style and philosophy whether someone considers it a good thing to forge a general agreement of how certain players should act that goes beyond (at the time) the admin thread.

But in my mind arguing against the point out of a sense of "style" would be bad form, as the first priority of a good villager is to do what is possible to win. If there is a situation that arises where there is clearly one side that is an advantage to the good side, the good villager should take it. Not doing so would run contrary to their whole alignment thus disturbing the balance set up by the Moderator. At least that's how I view it.

Originally Posted by Phantom

Perhaps, but in this case we wouldn't be following Seer hints, but rather false Seer hints. In other words, the clues that he would leave behind pointing to his falseness would logically be easier to discover and agree upon than usual Seer clues due to the fact that he would not have a Seer-level fear of discovery.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Ah, but this would interfere with the false seer's ability to fool the wolves, which was, if I understood you correctly, the whole point of not revealing in the first place.

I assumed someone would say this, and the answer- there still remains a difference between hinting and outright revealing, and that difference is primarily an issue of time and being thorough. It is possible for Werewolves to miss hints, as at busy stages of the game it is nearly impossible to examine every last post of every person in complete detail, where as on the other hand no way would the WWs miss an open reveal.

So, a hinting false Seer can leave hints that, if you know to look for them, can be found, but if you don't know to single out that individual you may pass over them.

(looking back I see that Lottie appears to have made this exact point)

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Rikae

the wolves dream of the false seer's role as seer. Why would the wolves be any less able to see the hints, in that case, than the village?

Under that circumstance the advantage to keeping quiet has already been won, due to the fact that the WWs were forced to waste a dream on the false Seer (who must have taken our advice and NOT revealed).

But anyway, I need to leave right away. I'll be back for the final couple of hours.

[Blind Guardian]

Sorry I'm not much help. I'm very confused. What the heck are you talking about!?! Well, I have to go. I'll be back before DL.

Xd with Rikae.

[A Little Green]

Rikae is making a whole lot of sense right now. Other than that, it's 1 AM and I've just started to re-adjust to the Finnish schedule, so I'm not going to mess that up by staying up ridiculously late because of an American deadline. Therefore, I'm going with the only thing I have:

++ Macalaure

I have something on him, one argument that holds water. I have nothing proper on others. I'm too tired to repeat the argument now, but it's in my previous post. Good night!


EDIT: x-ed with Rikae who has an avatar scarily similar to mine!

[Kath]

Bedtime for me - as I said it'll be early votes from me!

++BLIND GUARDIAN

There have been a lot of people throwing one liners out. It's Day 1, it's normal. But from most of those with one liners there seems to have been at least something a little useful, at least since some actual discussion started. From Blind Guardian we have two posts about the actual game itself, and neither is constructive:

1: Hello people I am here. But I have to leave. So...MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN!

2: Sorry I'm not much help. I'm very confused. What the heck are you talking about!?! Well, I have to go. I'll be back before DL.

Well something did happen. Lots happened! And if you're confused don't just put that as a random statement - make clear what you're confused about so it can be explained! If it's the false Seer business I'm sure neither Rikae or phantom would mind explaining it again if it means they get to argue more. On the subject of which, it's too early to tell whether that's innocents/guilty parties/bluffs etc, but it will definitely leave points for discussion in later Days.

Having literally just read Greenie's post I don't agree with her view on Mac. I thought he was making the point that if one saw hints in Boro's mentioning of Zeus then one had to see the same in Nerwen's mentioning of Hades, not that he actually thought that Nerwen's mention was suspicious. Because he said (about the Boro one):

It doesn't make sense, but it's definitely deliberate and not a slip. My bet would be a lover leaving a hint for their mate, except that that doesn't really make sense either.

Which I thought meant he didn't really think it was a hint. Maybe Mac will clear that up at some point.

And that's it from me for toDay.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Kath

Having literally just read Greenie's post I don't agree with her view on Mac. I thought he was making the point that if one saw hints in Boro's mentioning of Zeus then one had to see the same in Nerwen's mentioning of Hades, not that he actually thought that Nerwen's mention was suspicious. Because he said (about the Boro one):
"It doesn't make sense, but it's definitely deliberate and not a slip. My bet would be a lover leaving a hint for their mate, except that that doesn't really make sense either."
Which I thought meant he didn't really think it was a hint. Maybe Mac will clear that up at some point.

Now there is actually a huge difference in suspecting Zeus and Hera calling each other on the thread (which is not a thing they would need to do as they already know each other) than suspecting that Hades is trying to send a message to Persephone (which would make a lot of sense as the latter really needs to find the former for their love to become true).

Now as suspicions go on Day1 I find it perfectly justified to suspect Nerwen for being Hades and searching for Persephone, but the way Mac states it in a most vague way - praising Wilwa's notice of it, saying it's "definitively deliberate" and not a slip - but that it doesn't make sense raises my eyebrows considerably. What were you trying to say? Downplay Nerwen's possible guilt by bringing the idea to the fore? That would be bold and not smart. But Kath's defence of Mac looks odd as well. Just as Mac manages to say Boro's remarks were deliberate and not slips but hints, she says Mac meant they were not hints... Oh my. There's something fishy in here but it's hard to say what. Too many possibilities of which most don't make sense (I see I'm following Mac's and Greenie's reasoning here )

[Nogrod]

Okay let's get into the bussiness of trying to tie the Day up for now - from my part that is.

One thing that bothers me is this whole bussiness with Boro and his almighty Zeus stuff. I mean it's possible he tried something but somehow I find the discussion around it even more suspicious. Needs to check.

Also what Greenie said about Mac's remarks is something I had raised an eyebrow as well. Needs to think.

Eonwë's suggestion of the rangers picking turns makes him look more innocent than not as that is clearly an idea thrown in without thinking it through and I don't think a wolf-Eonwë would have tried that kind of bluff opening up a possibly devastating tactics to the innocents. The same goes with Zil's keeping up the idea on the list.

I like the fact that Greenie actually produced a list - even if there's little in it (but green things ).

X'd with Greenie... back in a few moments after re-reading a few things.

[Boromir88]

May we put a freeze on posts for about an hour so I can keep up? Yeesh.

As for my Zeus remarks, I legit figured since he is my ultimate God of Gods (and sans the Disney version reviled the wench Hera) he was a defacto good guy. Wasn't thinking that indepth at 5:30 AM when I have important deliveries to run.

I'm not exactly understanding the big deal other than I essentially repeated the phantom allied with lovers scenario without knowing I was possibly repeating it.

[Nogrod]

Here's what he said initially.

Originally Posted by Boro

One thing I am quite certain of is phantom will come up with a plan that will best achieve victory for whoever he's allied with, be it wolves, lover, or the great Zeus.

If he be allied with the wolves, we will all object to his plan because we don't want to admit it's a good plan, and proceed to lynch one of the seers.

If he be allied with a lover, we will all object to his plan, because we don't want to admit it's a good plan, and proceed to lynch one of the seers.

If he be allied with the almighty Zeus, we will all object to his plan....oh you get the idea.

Then Wilwa goes like this:

Originally Posted by Wilwa

I'm not all too certain why you've seperated Zeus from the other Lovers. If the other two Lovers find each other they will be no different from the Zeus/Hera pairing. Unless I'm missing something.

Eonwë commented:

Originally Posted by Eonwë

I think he meant that in that case the pantom would be on the "good" side as opposed to being Hera. Then again, we're the Olympians- there is no good or evil, only us. But you're right. Zeus would rather have Hera live than the rest of us, even she is on the opposite side.

And Wilwa answered:

Originally Posted by Wilwa

Well he did say 'allied with the almighty Zeus', so he must have been meaning Phantom as Hera. I just don't get why he seperated them from the other Lovers.

Then it's Rikae:

Originally Posted by Rikae

I think Boro didn't mean "Zeus" in the sense of the role. Either that, or he's hinting at something.

Then Wilwa again:

Originally Posted by Wilwa

And I hadn't considered that when Boro said 'allied with Zeus' that he meant 'the village'. I suppose that all makes more sense now.

Mac comes to it after some silence on the subject:

Originally Posted by Mac

Wilwa's remark on Boro's "almighty Zeus" is a good one. It doesn't make sense, but it's definitely deliberate and not a slip. My bet would be a lover leaving a hint for their mate, except that that doesn't really make sense either.

Eonwë once again is at it:

Originally Posted by Eonwë

Looking back on it, I see what you mean. He mentions "great Zeus" and then "almighty Zeus", so there probably is some hidden meaning.

Greenie mentions Boro in a long list of people confusing her:

Boro - Is confusing me to no end. His great Zeus left me quite baffled, as all the reasons I can think of for him saying that make no sense whatsoever.

Now there are a few things that bother me. Firstly it looks like totally odd as Zeus and Hera actually know each other already and thence there would be no reason for either of them trying to make contact - or anyone else to try and make contact with Zeus for that matter (as there being someone who could really benefit getting Zeus' notice, or how that kind of hinting would help revealing her/his role to him) - and all hinting of one's own personality I think was stirctly banned in the rules (and I can't see the benefit Zeus would have to reveal himself as Zeus, on D1 at least). So a hoaks? Much ado about nothing? Well, secondly it looks like those things wolves love to jump on: when they have no real suspicions themselves - because all they should suspect are innocents - they like to cling on scenarios some others suggest or that stand out in any possible way. Looking at the number of comments where Boro's wordings were deemed suspicious or noteworthy of a raised eyebrow I'd bet there are wolves involved.

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Okay let's get into the bussiness of trying to tie the Day up for now - from my part that is.

I second this! There has been some good discussion, but it also seem like there has been some dragged on discussion regarding the lovers.

I don't think the Seers should reveal. Obviously they should give some hints, confuse some wolves, and hopefully help out the town while they are at it.

I think I skipped over the Zeus comments so I'll have to go back and see if there is anything there.

[Lalaith]

Some interesting discussions here - I think the stuff about how to deal with the true/false seers is very helpful. Lots of people have actually been genuinely helpful today, and normally I go with that as a sign of innocence...unfortunately, I think that in this game, everyone, guilties and innocents alike, is trying to make sense of things so that is no longer a helpful guideline on how to vote.

Well, I am, like a few others here, forced to vote early due to European timezones. It's a baffling choice even by first day standards, and all I've got to go on is a hunch that the following vote could throw up something useful:
++BOROMIR

PS, how do I make this go red?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

PS, how do I make this go red?

write the word highlight instead of B to both ends...

[Loslote]

As we're all throwing out our suspicions of what Nerwen's role is based on her slip, may I just say that no one's suggested she might be Persephone, trying to find Hades? This is my current theory, anyways. I'd be up for lynching Nerwen, because if Persephone dies, so does Wolf!Hades - and I think Nerwen might be Persephone. If we don't come up with a wolf, that's where my vote will probably go.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Okay so three pages later, I'm pretty thoroughly confused (but what else is new) soo as per usual I'm just going to start talking.

I really don't see Boro's Zeus comment and Nerwen's Hades one as slips or hints of any kind. It's Day 1 of a Greek god themed game. There is nothing suspicious about working in banter, especially in the first few posts (which I think those were).

And now I shall go make myself a stupidly detailed cheatsheet chart of all the roles because that's what's been confusing me the most. I shall return!

[Eönwë]

I came across this in my reread of the thread (Kath's post here). So, went to the Admin thread, and look what it says:

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Poseidon- God of the Sea – Poseidon is this games Unicorn. When Poseidon dies I will put the names of all of the dead in a hat, including the Unicorn’s name. If the name I pick out is of an innocent (or Cobbler) that person will come back to life ALONG WITH Poseidon. If a Wolf or the False Seer is chosen, no one comes back.

Now, does this mean that there is a Cobbler, or is it a 'just in case' for this:

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Now, as I've said, the only way I will be playing with ALL of these roles is if I get enough people signed up to play. If not enough people are playing, I will remove some roles. If we get more then enough, I may add in a Bear or a Cobbler to the game.

The thing is, the Mod also says this:

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Just so we're clear, there is ONE ordo role as there are 20 players and only 19 roles

Which seems to suggest that there isn't an Cobbler, but then why leave it in (especially when he doesn't mention the bear anywhere else)?

[Rikae]

Re: Mac's comment about Nerwen - I thought that perhaps he was trying to confuse Persephone into picking Nerwen, who I doubted (and figured Mac doubted, since he didn't try to get her lynched) was actually Hades. I didn't really think a wolf would have made the comment Nerwen did, as it seemed too risky. But Mac, feel free to correct me - though, if you say I'm wrong, I may end up suspecting you, too.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Under that circumstance the advantage to keeping quiet has already been won, due to the fact that the WWs were forced to waste a dream on the false Seer (who must have taken our advice and NOT revealed).

But anyway, I need to leave right away. I'll be back for the final couple of hours.

Hm, in the case that they dream of xem because of xyr seer-hints? Well, let the false seer hint away, then. I'm sure the wolves will pick up what we want them to pick up, and miss what we want them to miss.