WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[Lalaith]

Some interesting discussions here - I think the stuff about how to deal with the true/false seers is very helpful. Lots of people have actually been genuinely helpful today, and normally I go with that as a sign of innocence...unfortunately, I think that in this game, everyone, guilties and innocents alike, is trying to make sense of things so that is no longer a helpful guideline on how to vote.

Well, I am, like a few others here, forced to vote early due to European timezones. It's a baffling choice even by first day standards, and all I've got to go on is a hunch that the following vote could throw up something useful:
++BOROMIR

PS, how do I make this go red?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

PS, how do I make this go red?

write the word highlight instead of B to both ends...

[Loslote]

As we're all throwing out our suspicions of what Nerwen's role is based on her slip, may I just say that no one's suggested she might be Persephone, trying to find Hades? This is my current theory, anyways. I'd be up for lynching Nerwen, because if Persephone dies, so does Wolf!Hades - and I think Nerwen might be Persephone. If we don't come up with a wolf, that's where my vote will probably go.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Loslote

As we're all throwing out our suspicions of what Nerwen's role is based on her slip, may I just say that no one's suggested she might be Persephone, trying to find Hades? This is my current theory,

Hades already knows who Persephone is so there's no need for Persephone to get into the risky bussiness of hinting her role to Hades. It's the task of Hades to give hints to Persephone who s/he is.

And unlike Rikae seems to think, I think it perfectly probable that the wolf-lovers would try to attract their lovers on Day1 to finalise their love asap and make them so much stronger! To wolf-lovers it is a catastrophic situation as long as their innocent part has not recognized them: it means their death actually if the other one dies. With the lover found they have many more options to win and at least to live. So there is some real pressure and urgency in the wolves trying to find their lovers.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Hades already knows who Persephone is so there's no need for Persephone to get into the risky bussiness of hinting her role to Hades. It's the task of Hades to give hints to Persephone who s/he is.

Maybe Nerwen thought she saw someone else hinting and was trying to confirm her suspicion, or maybe she just wanted him to be sure she was paying attention. Maybe she even threw it out in hopes that Hades would comment on it, just like we're all doing. I'll go back and see if there was anything she could have been responding to, trying to confirm a suspected hint.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, things have come to a pretty pass! I don't know, somehow you always think the Twilight of the Gods is something that only happens to other pantheons, don't you? *shakes head sadly*

I mean, really, what the Hades is going on? And I hear there's a mortal among us! We must smite this upstart immediately!

On second look, this was her first post, and it was joking banter. Hades was not refering to the person, but the place. I do think we've blown this way out of porportion. I take back my earlier suspicion. Sorry, Nerwen.

[Macalaure]

Just a comment now, more later.

I just skimmed some points against me. I did not claim that Boro is Zeus. My theory is that Boro dropped the name Zeus a few times to indicate that he is a lover, too, one of the three that need to find theirs. Having one or two lovers waste their first pick is bad, but worth having one be right with their first pick.

Greenie, I didn't really suspect Nerwen yet because I only made the comment that what I said about Boro can apply to her just as well.

The lovers are trying to find each other - we have to look for hints.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I just skimmed some points against me. I did not claim that Boro is Zeus. My theory is that Boro dropped the name Zeus a few times to indicate that he is a lover, too, one of the three that need to find theirs. Having one or two lovers waste their first pick is bad, but worth having one be right with their first pick.

If Boro is part of one of the other lover pairs, why would he think name-dropping Zeus might lead his unknown counterpart to him?

[Rikae]

Nog, I wasn't saying I didn't think it was possible that the wolves would hint, but that I thought that particular comment looked too risky.

Actually, though, on second thought, it may have seemed more risky purely due to the fact that Mac pointed it out. When I first read it, I saw it as in-character flavor and nothing more, so it may be that, objectively speaking, it wasn't that risky after all.

EDIT: X'd with Loslote. Maybe, but joking banter can conceal hints, too.

[Nogrod]

A correction to the earlier post. I checked the rules and realised there are such different variations as to who knows who with the lover-pairs.

So. If someone else has also missed those let me remind you of our situation - especially in eye of finding someone looking for a mate or signalling others.

Zeus and Hera know each other and may PM so there is no need of sending messages of identification between the two.

With Hades and Persephone, Hades know who Persephone is but she doesn't know him. So Hades should try to send a hint. Interestingly the only possible hint found thus far is about Hades...

Neither Hephaistos or Aphrodite know each others identity so they'd both like to know it. So both need to make hints.

Ares is the loner wolf, but then there is something I had totally forgotten and it made me think of a post I wondered while reading through earlier... well, there's Dionysos the cursed. What Thanatos the mod said:

Originally Posted by Glirdy

If the Wolves choose to Night kill him, he will join their ranks. Only the player and I will know that they are Dionysus.

And here's something interesting:

Originally Posted by Eonwë

I think Dionysus may have poisoned me (I feel quite sick), so I'm probably only going to be back near the end of the Day.

I'm quite sure the wolves have read the rules much more closer than we have so there's no risk of letting them know this. They have most probably read this already and notified it.

Also it would make sense of Eonwë's initial "wolf!" -post...

But what to do with him, that's another question.

X'd with Mac

[Inziladun]

Nog makes good points about Eönwë. His remark about Dionysus, which I took as a throw-away at the time, wouldn't seem to have any innocent context (innocent, as in meaningless) here. Why not just say "I'm ill"?
I'm not sure what to do based on that, either though. I'd like to hear what steve has to say about it.

[Rikae]

Well, if we'll be able to tell when the cursed is turned, we can always lynch Eonwe - though "Dionysus poisoned me" reads to me like "I had too much to drink."

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Well, if we'll be able to tell when the cursed is turned, we can always lynch Eonwe - though "Dionysus poisoned me" reads to me like "I had too much to drink."

Admin thread says:

Dionysus – God of Wine – Dionysus is the Cursed. If the Wolves choose to Night kill him, he will join their ranks. Only the player and I will know that they are Dionysus. I will not reveal the Cursed until the end of the game.

So if the Cursed is killed before being turned, I read that as saying they'll be revealed as an ordo at the time.
And that's possible about the Dionysus / wine connection, but steve is only what, 16?

[Blind Guardian]

I've drinken and I'm not 16. It's where I get my good looks from. Though I'm not French. Though I wouldn't drink that much, true. Dionyses doesn't have a lover. So is Eönwë hinting that he's Dionyses?

Xed with everyone since 134

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Loslote

On second look, this was her first post, and it was joking banter. Hades was not refering to the person, but the place. I do think we've blown this way out of porportion. I take back my earlier suspicion. Sorry, Nerwen.

That's okay. I realise now that the usual themed Day One bantering was possibly ill-advised in this game, because pretty much anything you can say relates to one of the roles. I hadn't got my head around that at that stage.

[Loslote]

I can't think of another explanation for Steve's comment. I'd say the only thing we can do is leave him be until we have reason to think he's been turned. As of now, he counts for the innocents. Later in the game, it'll be really important to have as many innocents as possible.

As a side note, if the Ranger or Hunting Guardian protect the Cursed from a wolf attack, they're not Turned, are they? So we could, theoretically, keep Steve on our side as long as we wanted.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I realise now that the usual themed Day One bantering was possibly ill-advised in this game, because pretty much anything you can say relates to one of the roles. I hadn't got my head around that at that stage.

Or didn't think anyone would notice it as you couldn't know people would start focusing on that later on the Day?

I went through the thread - not close reading but skimming it through - to find any hints about Hades (death), Hephaistos (forging, smiths), Aphrodite (love) or Dionysos (drinking) and sadly found only those that have been already mentioned, mainly Eonwë's and Nerwen's comments. So the lovers have been pretty careful.

Well, there is one good side to this: after all this talk and searching for hints they need to be much more careful in the future and the task of the lovers finding their mates will be harder - which reduces their power considerably as most their effects take place only after they have found one another.

[Macalaure]

It's funny how toDay's debates can be divided up so nicely.


The initial stage:

(Almost) only bantering:
Loslote, BG, Eonwe, Autume (her comment about the usefulness of Day1 and then admitting that she forgot you can lynch people looks bad)

phantom
doing phantommy things, less annoying than usual.

Nerwen
drops the name Hades in her first post, amidst banter. Not much helpfulness after it

Boro
talks about Zeus. I remember Mith's opera-themed game, where he hinted to the wolves that he's the cobbler in his first post in a similar manner.

Wilwa
sensible, but Wilwolf is sensible, too, so I'm wary. Certainly not going to vote her toDay, though.

Foley
I don't remember her style, to be honest. She seems earnest in her attempt to contribute, so I'm fine with her for now.

Rikae
is hard to read

Inzil
not sure, but vaguely bad feeling

Feel fine:
Lalaith, Greenie, Nogrod

Barely there:
Sally, Kath, Keeper of Mirandir


The "let's talk about roles"-stage

I really dislike excessive role and rule discussion. It enables wolves to participate without actually doing anything while innocents are occupied with something other than finding them.

People getting themselves dragged into lovers/seers/whatnot discussion:
phantom, Foley, Wilwa, Nog, Nerwen, Inzil, Eonwe, Rikae, Nienna, Loslote.

Out of these, Nerwen, Inzil, Nienna and Loslote seem most suspicious, since they're staying around the fringes and/or haven't contributed much else otherwise.


The "let's talk about people's hints"-stage

Greenie
List of people. I'd like to know why Lottie and Nerwen seem innocent to her. "a bit less calculating" is kind of vague. She votes me since I'm the only one she has anything on, which is fair, but it still seems foul to me. Suspecting her to be Persephone (defends Nerwen, who could be Hades, votes me over my point against Nerwen) at this point would go too far, but it's tempting.

Kath
defends me, which is nice. She misunderstands me, too, but maybe that's because I really wasn't clear enough in my first post.

Boro
not buying his Zeus-explanation yet. Seen him do it before.

Nogrod
throws himself into the Zeus affair heads first and follows Greenie's reasons. I don't get a suspicious feel. Then he brings up Eonwe, which is fair, but he keeps on talking about him, even though there's no way we are going to lynch a possible cursed toDay. He also keeps on misunderstanding my point against Boro, even though Rikae explained it plainly again.

Autume
passive => suspicious

Lalaith
votes Boro, which might come to haunt her should we find Boro innocent, especially since she didn't have any case against him. That's why she's probably not evil, since they would have been more careful who to vote randomly.

Rikae
hm, tricking Persephone would have been a good idea, too, in hindsight
Seems very innocent in this part.

Loslote
is a bit confusing and back-and-forth with her opinion on Nerwen.

Inzil
still have a bad feeling: only talks about Eonwe.

Nienna
her only post here is about Eonwe, too.

Nerwen
I don't buy her explanation either.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Okay so three pages later, I'm pretty thoroughly confused (but what else is new) soo as per usual I'm just going to start talking.

I really don't see Boro's Zeus comment and Nerwen's Hades one as slips or hints of any kind. It's Day 1 of a Greek god themed game. There is nothing suspicious about working in banter, especially in the first few posts (which I think those were).

And now I shall go make myself a stupidly detailed cheatsheet chart of all the roles because that's what's been confusing me the most. I shall return!

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

But if he's turned he can't be good. And if that was indeed a hint, he had to have known the wolves could pick up on it as easily as innocents.

I think it'd be good for Eonwe to comment on this. I personally am leaning towards him being innocent at this point. However am going to be keeping my eye on him.

Originally Posted by Keeper of Dol Guldur

Okay so three pages later, I'm pretty thoroughly confused (but what else is new) soo as per usual I'm just going to start talking.

I really don't see Boro's Zeus comment and Nerwen's Hades one as slips or hints of any kind. It's Day 1 of a Greek god themed game. There is nothing suspicious about working in banter, especially in the first few posts (which I think those were).

And now I shall go make myself a stupidly detailed cheatsheet chart of all the roles because that's what's been confusing me the most. I shall return!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who got confused! And a cheat sheet chart sounds like a really good idea. I think I might have to make myself one too.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Originally Posted by autume98

I'm glad I'm not the only one who got confused! And a cheat sheet chart sounds like a really good idea. I think I might have to make myself one too.

Mine's color coded!

Shasta's response to "mrow? ww?" was "Crap, has it started?" He should be on at some point.

And now I shall be going back and actually reading what I missed while I was playing with markers.

[Rikae]

I thought I'd better go back and see how all the Boro's-Zeus-hints business got stearted, since it all seemed kind of weird, so:


Boro posts, then:

Originally Posted by Wilwa

First, I'm not all too certain why you've seperated Zeus from the other Lovers. If the other two Lovers find each other they will be no different from the Zeus/Hera pairing. Unless I'm missing something.

Second, Nerwen is right. They are actually all the same. The Lovers and Wolves are essentially on the same team right now. Zeus is really like a 5th wolf at the moment, except he doesn't know who 3 of them are, and has no real say in the Night kill, and counts in the innocent numbers (so maybe more like a cobblerish thing, as long as Hera is still kicking). The other 2 Lovers are potential allies for the wolves if they are united with their wolfy loves.

So, Wilwa just seems confused by Boro's remark, and gives him an explanation of the roles. Then:

Originally Posted by Steve

I think he meant that in that case the pantom would be on the "good" side as opposed to being Hera. Then again, we're the Olympians- there is no good or evil, only us. But you're right. Zeus would rather have Hera live than the rest of us, even she is on the opposite side.

So, Steve seems to interpret Boro's remark as Boro later explained it, and then go on to agree with Wilwa on why it's confusing due to the roles.

Originally Posted by Wilwa

Well he did say 'allied with the almighty Zeus', so he must have been meaning Phantom as Hera. I just don't get why he seperated them from the other Lovers.

Anyway. I want more action. I have to go to work later, and I don't want all the good stuff to happen without me.

So now Wilwa seems to be pushing for an explanation a bit, at least for “more action.” Well, stirring the pot is a noble enough enterprise...

Originally Posted by Phantom

Interesting tactic, Boro (you know the one I mean- the one that has nothing to do with me personally, but the underlying tactic). Given simple odds I figure you're bluffing, but if you aren't and things happen the way you appear to wish for them to happen (I mean you're practically begging), do you realize how many peeved players there will be? I realize this is a rather free and open game and you are free to place your loyalties anywhere you please, but really...

So, Phantom seems to read Boro as a cursed or lover hinting to the wolves... at least, that's how I read it.

Originally Posted by Rikae

To others: I think Boro didn't mean "Zeus" in the sense of the role. Either that, or he's hinting at something.

The first is what I really thought; the second, as the smiley indicates, is lighthearted and directed at Phantom.

Originally Posted by Wilwa

And I hadn't considered that when Boro said 'allied with Zeus' that he meant 'the village'. I suppose that all makes more sense now.

So Wilwa seems content...

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Doesn't to me - particularly as Zeus himself is not whole-heartedly allied to the village.

But now Lalaith is reading into it.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Is he allied to the village at all? Can he win without Hera?

And Nerwen - I can't tell if she's trying to turn up suspicion on Boro a notch, or just clarifying. Considering the possible hinting she may have done, it's interesting.



And yeah. At this point it all dissolves in a clarification of the roles I'd rather not go through again. It seems, though, that Phantom started things, and Lalaith wound them up again when they were running down. Lalaith seems to be coming into it at a late point wanting clarification, but Phantom seems to have given it some thought before posting what he did, so I'd be interested in hearing what his intentions were.


Also, Loslote, Inzil and Nerwen, I already pointed all that (regarding Steve's loyalties) out. He could be hinting to the wolves because he wants to be turned. He could be hinting to the village because he *doesn't* want to be turned, or wants to be lynched if turned. Either way, he's unlikely to be turned now, and if there is a no-kill and we don't have reason to think it's a ranger save, we can lynch him. He can't actually play as a cobbler, though - goes against his role.

EDIT: X'd with Loslote

[Eönwë]

I came across this in my reread of the thread (Kath's post here). So, went to the Admin thread, and look what it says:

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Poseidon- God of the Sea – Poseidon is this games Unicorn. When Poseidon dies I will put the names of all of the dead in a hat, including the Unicorn’s name. If the name I pick out is of an innocent (or Cobbler) that person will come back to life ALONG WITH Poseidon. If a Wolf or the False Seer is chosen, no one comes back.

Now, does this mean that there is a Cobbler, or is it a 'just in case' for this:

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Now, as I've said, the only way I will be playing with ALL of these roles is if I get enough people signed up to play. If not enough people are playing, I will remove some roles. If we get more then enough, I may add in a Bear or a Cobbler to the game.

The thing is, the Mod also says this:

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Just so we're clear, there is ONE ordo role as there are 20 players and only 19 roles

Which seems to suggest that there isn't an Cobbler, but then why leave it in (especially when he doesn't mention the bear anywhere else)?

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I came across this in my reread of the thread (Kath's post here). So, went to the Admin thread, and look what it says:


Now, does this mean that there is a Cobbler, or is it a 'just in case' for this:

The thing is, the Mod also says this:

Which seems to suggest that there isn't an Cobbler, but then why leave it in (especially when he doesn't mention the bear anywhere else)?

Steve, I think he was just saying that if we have heaps and heaps extra there may be a cobbler or a bear. And I think Kath is talking about innocents not ordos. There are lots of innocents... but only one ordo. Make sense?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Nienna

And I think Kath is talking about innocents not ordos.

I knew that, I just mentioned Kath's post because that's what prompted me to reread.

Originally Posted by Nienna

Steve, I think he was just saying that if we have heaps and heaps extra there may be a cobbler or a bear.

That's what I was hoping- I was just bothered by the fact that he kept the word Cobbler in there.