Orcs... were elves?

[Galin]

Plus externally we don't find Tolkien considering Hobbits as Orc-stock, and he considered: Elves, Men, Elves and also (later) Men, Maiar, beasts, and noted that (internally) some thought the Druedain could have been involved. He even considered the discord of the Music! as another origin.

But this reminds me: one thing I do wonder about in the Elder Days (or Second Age) is height however, as orcs in general don't seem to be that tall. Even the huge uruk in Moria was almost man-high, with the half-orcs being generally man-high*

And by some accounts the Eldar were 6 and a half feet tall, with some kings or leaders even taller -- and by other accounts even taller, Tolkien imagining them normally about 7 feet tall (especially the Noldor), equal in general to the towering Numenoreans.

So I picture a seven foot Glorfindel or Ecthelion, for example, battling the average orc and it seems a notable disparity in height. The uruks of Mordor (and Isengard) are relatively late, just like Saruman's half-orcs -- maybe the Maiar-orcs could have been more use to JRRT, and become more (in number) than leaders of other Orcs, helping fill the ranks with larger stronger types.

Thousands of Boldogs to replace Balrogs one thousand?

Or did Orcs dwindle maybe, and at first 'regular' orcs from the First Age were taller? Or something I'm not thinking of.

__________
*I don't agree that 'man-high' in The Lord of the Rings text must necessarily equal 6 foot 4, as the term is also noted in Numenorean Linear Measures in Unfinished Tales.

[Pitchwife]

*succumbs to temptation of playing advocatus diaboli*

Originally Posted by Galin

Or did Orcs dwindle maybe, and at first 'regular' orcs from the First Age were taller? Or something I'm not thinking of.

Originally Posted by Galin a few posts later

I guess if we speculatively add Dwarves that might add yet another race! but I would rather embiggen the orcs of the Elder Days somehow, and attribute a dwindling to... well something.

Don't we know of another race that is said to have 'dwindled' in physical height? From LotR Prologue, Concerning Hobbits:

Their height is variable, ranging between two and three feet of our measure. They seldom now reach three feet; but they have dwindled, they say, and in ancient days they were taller.

Strange coincidence, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It's really difficult for me to believe that Hobbits played a part, even an unwilling one, in the making of Orcs with Sauron displaying such ignorance of them.

That would depend on how closely Sauron was involved with Morgoth's breeding project. Plus, aren't Hobbits supposed to be a race or, in modern language, sub-species of ultimately Mannish stock? Again from the Prologue:

It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves.

Now we don't know around which time in history the Hobbits branched off from the Big People, but I'm inclined to think that they weren't originally that much shorter than the average Man (maybe only a foot or so?) and only 'dwindled' to halfling size over time, possibly adapting to their semi-subterranean lifestyle. So Sauron needn't necessarily have made the mental connection between the hypothetical Proto-Hobbits used in Orc-breeding far back in prehistory and the contemporary midgets of the late Third Age.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Now we don't know around which time in history the Hobbits branched off from the Big People, but I'm inclined to think that they weren't originally that much shorter than the average Man (maybe only a foot or so?) and only 'dwindled' to halfling size over time, possibly adapting to their semi-subterranean lifestyle. So Sauron needn't necessarily have made the mental connection between the hypothetical Proto-Hobbits used in Orc-breeding far back in prehistory and the contemporary midgets of the late Third Age.

Sauron needn't have been actively involved in the Orc-making project to have at least known where they came from. Since he made so much use of them himself, I'd expect him to know at least their basic history.

The First Age:
Sauron: "Hey Boss, what the Utumno are those things running around here? Is that the new servant race you've been talking about?"

Morgoth: "Yep. I captured a few _______ and tortured 'em for a while, and...here are they are."

Sauron: "Cool! Have you seen my Hummel figurines?"

Flash forward a few thousand years:

Sauron: "Hmm. This Gollum creature who had my Ring...I know I've seen something like him before. Let's see. He's not an Elf. Not a Man, and no Dwarf. He's not 15 feet tall, so I guess an Ent is out of the question. What's left? Ah! Those little Periannath worms 'ol Melkor used to make the Orcs!

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sauron: "Cool! Have you seen my Hummel figurines?"

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Were-Elves.

Transformed into hideous beasts by the forces of darkness!

[morwen edhelwen]

ha ha.. basically I guess if you're going with the older ideas... elves corrupted by torture ):.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Were-Elves.

Transformed into hideous beasts by the forces of darkness!

Meaning they turn back into Elves by Day? (Capitalisation intentional, of course.)

[Morthoron]

Orcs were Elves who eschewed proper daily hair care. The conditioners and shampoos of the Elves were protein-rich, suffused with vitamins and had the essential oils and amino acids necessary for lustrous elvish coifs. As with all great civilization, once hair care was abandoned, Orkishness followed.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galin

(...) Or did Orcs dwindle maybe, and at first 'regular' orcs from the First Age were taller?

I stumbled across an interesting note from the 1930s -- the early-ish decade being notable here because we are still well enough away from a finished, published The Lord of the Rings (1954, 1955), in which a huge orc-chieftain (who arguably must be an uruk given a previous statement) is almost man-high -- as the list notes...

'... sometimes translated 'goblins' but they were of nearly human stature.' JRRT, 1930s wordlist, The Lost Road And Other Writings

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

I stumbled across an interesting note from the 1930s -- the early-ish decade being notable here because we are still well enough away from a finished, published The Lord of the Rings (1954, 1955), in which a huge orc-chieftain (who arguably must be an uruk given a previous statement) is almost man-high -- as the list notes...

'... sometimes translated 'goblins' but they were of nearly human stature.' JRRT, 1930s wordlist, The Lost Road And Other Writings

In a letter from 1954, Tolkien described them as "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes".
Letters #210

"Squat" is a relative term, of course. I note how close that description is to this one of the drûgs:

They were stumpy (some four foot high) but very broad....their wide faces had deep-set eyes with heavy brows, and flat noses, and grew no hair below their eyebrows....Their features were usually impassive, the most mobile being their wide mouths.....

UT The Drúedain

There are differences in the descriptions, sure. There are also a lot of similarities.

One thing interesting about the Orcs is the apparent lack of facial hair. With Men and Dwarves it was very common, and even Círdan of the Teleri had a beard when seen by members of the Fellowship at the Havens.

Drûgs (and Hobbits), however, shared the trait of being smooth-faced with Orcs. Coincidence?

[Galin]

Right, I think Tolkien had a little problem here (no pun intended): if, as in the 1950s, a huge Uruk is still only 'almost' man-high, and there are plenty of squat, or Hobbit-sized orcs around, then what about the First Age, thousands of years before the coming of the Uruks? Thus the 1930s quote would seem to indicate that (externally) Tolkien imagined Orcs, in general, as indeed not small, but of nearly human stature -- I mean there could have been some smaller ones, but generally orcs seem as tall as the uruks would become.

Granted, this is an external comparison, but I think Tolkien would need to allow for both things: that is, large enough orcs in the First and Second Ages (Maiar-orcs do not seem to be numerous enough), as enemies of the Noldor and Numenoreans -- considering that the larger orcs of the Third Age appear to be the Uruks -- themselves entering the scene relatively late in the history of Middle-earth.


Maiar-orcs could provide the answer in my opinion, as I think they could have provided an answer to the 'problem' of chronology with respect to Treebeard's statement, if Tolkien wanted Men to be the main stock: that is, if orcs first appeared in the Great Darkness as Treebeard notes -- the Great Darkness referring to a period of Melkor's influence before (it would appear) large numbers of Elves passed over Sea -- then Treebeard could be remembering Maiar-orcs, larger and more powerful orcs than those 'regular' orcs that would come later; but anyway 'orcs' in general to him.

Yet again I would agree: why do corrupted Men necessarily need to be so much smaller than Men? Imagining they were almost man-high, a gradual Third Age dwindling of Orcs seems a better idea to me, perhaps in part due to the great victories of the Last Alliance -- with their height coming back later with the Uruks of Mordor (though a number of Hobgoblin, or larger types, as exceptions up North would not be too problematic, I think).

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galin

Yet again I would agree: why do corrupted Men necessarily need to be so much smaller than Men?

Possibly its the relationship of height to stature. It is marked that Numenorians were taller than other Men. However, as years pased and their stature in ME dwindled, they became shorter. Orcs fell much lower.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

One thing interesting about the Orcs is the apparent lack of facial hair. With Men and Dwarves it was very common, and even Círdan of the Teleri had a beard when seen by members of the Fellowship at the Havens.

Drûgs (and Hobbits), however, shared the trait of being smooth-faced with Orcs. Coincidence?

Tecnically that is only partially true. A footnote in the Drunedain essay notes a few Drugs were able to grow a tiny beard (it's described as being like a small peice of dried moss) and that this is considered a major status symbol amoungs them. And other notes point out that Stoor's (the most mannish of hobbits) can sometimes grow facial hair (though Ive often thoght that the Stoors, being so mannish to begin with, may have gotten some actual mannish blood (or more accuratley, normal mannish blood, since hobbits themselves are a type of man) in them over time, and the beards may come from there.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Tecnically that is only partially true. A footnote in the Drunedain essay notes a few Drugs were able to grow a tiny beard (it's described as being like a small peice of dried moss) and that this is considered a major status symbol amoungs them. And other notes point out that Stoor's (the most mannish of hobbits) can sometimes grow facial hair (though Ive often thoght that the Stoors, being so mannish to begin with, may have gotten some actual mannish blood (or more accuratley, normal mannish blood, since hobbits themselves are a type of man) in them over time, and the beards may come from there.

I was aware that there could have been exceptions, but as "offshoots" of Men, in general neither drûgs nor Hobbits were known for growing facial hair.

By the same token, the fact that we aren't told of any Orcs having beards is no proof that there were none. However, I am disinclined to believe that the shared smooth-faced characteristics of the three groups was necessarily meaningless.

[Eruhen]

To my (admittedly non-expert) view, the multiple-origins theory answers more questions than it raises. By having the First and Second Age orcs be based primarily off of Maiar and Eldar stock, it provides formidable enemies for the Eldar and Atani to battle without having the ridiculous scene of an Elf or a Man fighting an Orc half his size or less. Then, over the course of the Second and Third Ages, Sauron could breed Men (specifically Easterlings and Southrons) into the Orcs as a way of rebuilding the armies the War of Wrath decimated. Also, the Orcs that sheltered from the Ruin of Beleriand in the Misty Mountains would naturally decline in size to fit their new lodgings in the 7000 years between the Ruin and the War of the Ring.

I also like the idea of there being 'high' and 'low' bloodlines in the Orcish race, corresponding to more and less Elvish and Maiar blood.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I was aware that there could have been exceptions, but as "offshoots" of Men, in general neither drûgs nor Hobbits were known for growing facial hair.

By the same token, the fact that we aren't told of any Orcs having beards is no proof that there were none. However, I am disinclined to believe that the shared smooth-faced characteristics of the three groups was necessarily meaningless.

Beardedness seems to vary amoungs the mannish groups. The Numenorians (and by extension, Gondorians and Arnorians) are notably beardless, though whethere they actually don't usually grow beards or if it's just that beards have never been fashionable is a bit unclear to me (the Numernorians do have some elvish blood in them (at least the royal line does) so they may have the elvish beard expression (i.e not growing facial hair till they are quite elderly, possibly not until and age far in excess of what they live to). The fuzzyness of the other free mannish races is not much mentioned, though the fact that note is made of the fact that the Near Haradrim are bearded by those that fight them seems to indicate that beards may not be a common sight in the free lands (though you have to weigh this agaisnt the fact that most of the people who are fighting the Haradrim are Gondorian, who as previously noted, don't usually wear beards) The The Ishtari are of course bearded, but since common men tend to think of them (at least to think of Gandalf, and presumably Saruman) as possibly being part elf or dwarf anyway their beardeness may or may not have been a remarkable trait.