Orcs... were elves? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Feanor of the Peredhil · 08-15-2010, 03:20 PM

Were-Elves.

Transformed into hideous beasts by the forces of darkness!

morwen edhelwen · 08-16-2010, 04:02 AM

ha ha.. basically I guess if you're going with the older ideas... elves corrupted by torture ):.

Nerwen · 08-16-2010, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Were-Elves.

Transformed into hideous beasts by the forces of darkness!

Meaning they turn back into Elves by Day? (Capitalisation intentional, of course.)

Morthoron · 08-16-2010, 09:23 AM

Orcs were Elves who eschewed proper daily hair care. The conditioners and shampoos of the Elves were protein-rich, suffused with vitamins and had the essential oils and amino acids necessary for lustrous elvish coifs. As with all great civilization, once hair care was abandoned, Orkishness followed.

Formendacil · 08-24-2010, 07:21 AM

As far as an overall decrease in height over the millennia between the War of Wrath and the War of the Rings goes--a period of seven thousand years, and close to as long as the Hobbits had to diverge significantly from their initial Mannish stock--is it not possible that the Orks became shorter as a result of evolution? After all, they survived the end of the First Age chiefly in dark hiding places, that is to say caves and such, and these remained their chief dwellings into the early First Age and beyond--Mordor and Isengard notwithstanding.

After all, if the Orkish breeding stock after 1 S.A. was to be found only in those Orks that made it off Beleriand and into the mountains somewhere (and presumably the Blue Mountains were a bad bet, given all those Elves, Dwarves, and Edain swarming about), wouldn't it make sense that almost all of the ancestors of the much-later Third Age Orks would have been, typically, the smallest specimens of Ork: those most suited to an underground life? What's more, barring the realm of Sauron in Mordor (which was not a constant for every century, and which still had to deal with daylight), smaller Orks would have been optimal for surviving in conditions such as those seen under the Great Goblin.

Galin · 08-24-2010, 07:43 AM

It's possible that some Orcs diminished simply due to 'unchecked' breeding, smaller surviving orcs breeding or something.

Concerning Hobbits, for myself I imagine they 'awoke' as Hobbits, not that they became smaller through time to become 'halflings' in the first place. Is there anything that doesn't allow my opinion here concerning Hobbits? I don't recall anything at the moment, at least.

Animalmother · 03-21-2011, 11:28 PM

Given Melkor/Morgoth's evil proclivity as a sub-creator, the polygenesis hypothesis of orc origins makes most sense. He enjoyed twisting and ruining beings, so why would he limit himself to elves as his founding stock for orcs, when mankind (and perhaps proto-hobbit kind) were also available?

Polygenesis would explain some of the anomalies in the LOTR text. If orcs were of two original stocks, one immortal and the other mortal, orc society would have an orc-aristocracy with a proportionally greater share of elven ancestry, which would confer on the orc-aristocrats greater height, greater longevity, and greater knowledge of ancient orc lore and of the will of their dark masters. The great mass of orcs (snaga) would be twisted versions of mankind, would be shorter and shorter-lived, and would not be the carriers of high (low?) orc-culture. This parallels the caste differences between Numenoreans and other Men.

Shagrat and Gorbag (who remembered a "Great Siege" which could have been the siege of Minas Ithil 1000 years earlier) were likely aristo-orcs, and therefore would naturally be in positions of command. The father-son dynasty of Misty Mountain orc-kings which was so long-lived (Azog/Bolg if I remember right) would also be aristo-orcs. The Great Goblin of THE HOBBIT would be one too. The great mass of common orcs would be of longevity no greater than mankind's.

Orc fertility is another question. Elves would naturally have low fertility, which is unsuitable for a warrior species. Melkor/Morgoth's mutation of women into orc-women would include modifying normal human reproduction so that the orc women frequently produced twins, triplets, and quadruplets. This would explain how the orc population recovered quickly after crushing defeats. It would also explain, to some extent, the small stature of common orcs, as multiple fetuses competing for limited pre-natal nutrition tend to be less large and healthy than single fetuses.

Did orcs have free will? I think the answer, given their origins and actual behavior, must be yes. Their innate urges to be cruel and warlike were stronger than mankind's, and were reinforced by a culture of darkness, but they had free wills and could imagine having different lives, as could Gollum. Was the universal elf/human/dwarf policy of orc-extermination unjustifiable? That's too tough an ethical question for me.

Alfirin · 04-02-2011, 01:18 PM

Another argument in favor of Orcs and Hobbits sharing a common ancestor might be the fact that Frodo and Sam were able to disguise themselves as Orcs......and get away with it . Leaving aside the fact that they Sam has little or no difficulty in Cirith Ungol finding orkish garments that will fit Frodo and himself (which seems to indicate that hobbit sized orcs are fairly common). The addion of those clothes is enough to let them pass for orcs well enough to fool other orcs cursory examination, up fairly close. Even factoring in the fact that the Orc that drove them back into the marching column was likey in a hurry (hereafter referred to as the OS (Orc Sargeant) as I don't remember if he had a name) and the possibility that he only saw them from the back, the fact that they were not immediately recongnized as not being orcs desite the fact they aren't wearing masks (Sam I think actually says that a mask might help frodo pass for an orc I think, which seems to indicate that orcish armor does not unusally come with face plates on the helmets or cloth covers worn on the face, or it would have been a non-issue) seems to indicate that orcs and hobbits are cursorarily similar in appearance, similar enough to fool an Orcish officer (who presumaby has a degree of perception somewhat higher than the rank an file orc as otherwise he would not likey be in a position of command, or at least would not stay there.)

As for the questiuon posed earlier with regards to Orcish lifespan, that's a little hard to determine, since the real measure would require something that the other races of ME likey would never see, a non-slave non-combat orc, and orc with a life of ease and peace and who dies of old age. Orc might in fact have very long natural lifespans, but because of their extremely agressive and violent natures, few if any get to the end of thier actual lifespan. Think of it like, say a parrot which lives maybe 5-6 years on average in the wild, but in captivity can live almost as long as a person.

08-15-2010, 03:20 PM	#1
Feanor of the Peredhil La Belle Dame sans Merci Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perpetual uncertainty Posts: 5,517	Orcs: Were-Elves. Transformed into hideous beasts by the forces of darkness! __________________ peace

08-16-2010, 09:23 AM	#4
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,515	Orcs were Elves who eschewed proper daily hair care. The conditioners and shampoos of the Elves were protein-rich, suffused with vitamins and had the essential oils and amino acids necessary for lustrous elvish coifs. As with all great civilization, once hair care was abandoned, Orkishness followed. __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

08-24-2010, 07:21 AM	#5
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,328	As far as an overall decrease in height over the millennia between the War of Wrath and the War of the Rings goes--a period of seven thousand years, and close to as long as the Hobbits had to diverge significantly from their initial Mannish stock--is it not possible that the Orks became shorter as a result of evolution? After all, they survived the end of the First Age chiefly in dark hiding places, that is to say caves and such, and these remained their chief dwellings into the early First Age and beyond--Mordor and Isengard notwithstanding. After all, if the Orkish breeding stock after 1 S.A. was to be found only in those Orks that made it off Beleriand and into the mountains somewhere (and presumably the Blue Mountains were a bad bet, given all those Elves, Dwarves, and Edain swarming about), wouldn't it make sense that almost all of the ancestors of the much-later Third Age Orks would have been, typically, the smallest specimens of Ork: those most suited to an underground life? What's more, barring the realm of Sauron in Mordor (which was not a constant for every century, and which still had to deal with daylight), smaller Orks would have been optimal for surviving in conditions such as those seen under the Great Goblin. __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

08-24-2010, 07:43 AM	#6
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	It's possible that some Orcs diminished simply due to 'unchecked' breeding, smaller surviving orcs breeding or something. Concerning Hobbits, for myself I imagine they 'awoke' as Hobbits, not that they became smaller through time to become 'halflings' in the first place. Is there anything that doesn't allow my opinion here concerning Hobbits? I don't recall anything at the moment, at least. Last edited by Galin; 08-24-2010 at 10:15 AM.

03-21-2011, 11:28 PM	#7
Animalmother Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14	Orc Aristocrats Given Melkor/Morgoth's evil proclivity as a sub-creator, the polygenesis hypothesis of orc origins makes most sense. He enjoyed twisting and ruining beings, so why would he limit himself to elves as his founding stock for orcs, when mankind (and perhaps proto-hobbit kind) were also available? Polygenesis would explain some of the anomalies in the LOTR text. If orcs were of two original stocks, one immortal and the other mortal, orc society would have an orc-aristocracy with a proportionally greater share of elven ancestry, which would confer on the orc-aristocrats greater height, greater longevity, and greater knowledge of ancient orc lore and of the will of their dark masters. The great mass of orcs (snaga) would be twisted versions of mankind, would be shorter and shorter-lived, and would not be the carriers of high (low?) orc-culture. This parallels the caste differences between Numenoreans and other Men. Shagrat and Gorbag (who remembered a "Great Siege" which could have been the siege of Minas Ithil 1000 years earlier) were likely aristo-orcs, and therefore would naturally be in positions of command. The father-son dynasty of Misty Mountain orc-kings which was so long-lived (Azog/Bolg if I remember right) would also be aristo-orcs. The Great Goblin of THE HOBBIT would be one too. The great mass of common orcs would be of longevity no greater than mankind's. Orc fertility is another question. Elves would naturally have low fertility, which is unsuitable for a warrior species. Melkor/Morgoth's mutation of women into orc-women would include modifying normal human reproduction so that the orc women frequently produced twins, triplets, and quadruplets. This would explain how the orc population recovered quickly after crushing defeats. It would also explain, to some extent, the small stature of common orcs, as multiple fetuses competing for limited pre-natal nutrition tend to be less large and healthy than single fetuses. Did orcs have free will? I think the answer, given their origins and actual behavior, must be yes. Their innate urges to be cruel and warlike were stronger than mankind's, and were reinforced by a culture of darkness, but they had free wills and could imagine having different lives, as could Gollum. Was the universal elf/human/dwarf policy of orc-extermination unjustifiable? That's too tough an ethical question for me.

08-16-2010, 04:02 AM	#2
morwen edhelwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 91	ha ha.. basically I guess if you're going with the older ideas... elves corrupted by torture ):.

04-02-2011, 01:18 PM	#8
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	Another argument in favor of Orcs and Hobbits sharing a common ancestor might be the fact that Frodo and Sam were able to disguise themselves as Orcs......and get away with it . Leaving aside the fact that they Sam has little or no difficulty in Cirith Ungol finding orkish garments that will fit Frodo and himself (which seems to indicate that hobbit sized orcs are fairly common). The addion of those clothes is enough to let them pass for orcs well enough to fool other orcs cursory examination, up fairly close. Even factoring in the fact that the Orc that drove them back into the marching column was likey in a hurry (hereafter referred to as the OS (Orc Sargeant) as I don't remember if he had a name) and the possibility that he only saw them from the back, the fact that they were not immediately recongnized as not being orcs desite the fact they aren't wearing masks (Sam I think actually says that a mask might help frodo pass for an orc I think, which seems to indicate that orcish armor does not unusally come with face plates on the helmets or cloth covers worn on the face, or it would have been a non-issue) seems to indicate that orcs and hobbits are cursorarily similar in appearance, similar enough to fool an Orcish officer (who presumaby has a degree of perception somewhat higher than the rank an file orc as otherwise he would not likey be in a position of command, or at least would not stay there.) As for the questiuon posed earlier with regards to Orcish lifespan, that's a little hard to determine, since the real measure would require something that the other races of ME likey would never see, a non-slave non-combat orc, and orc with a life of ease and peace and who dies of old age. Orc might in fact have very long natural lifespans, but because of their extremely agressive and violent natures, few if any get to the end of thier actual lifespan. Think of it like, say a parrot which lives maybe 5-6 years on average in the wild, but in captivity can live almost as long as a person.