Firiel...

[Mithalwen]

In response to another thread I was reading one of Tolkien's letters to Pauline Baynes where he says that these poems are "pictures seen in a tapestry of antiquity" . As has been pointed out they are not factual even in the way say that the song of Beren and Luthien that Aragorn sings in LOTR is .. the immortal elves can preserve their oral tradition in the way that mortals can not.

It has internal "evidence" that this poem has its origins (within the conceit of it being folklore of a created world) in Belfalas where the elves had the harbour Edhellond and where the princes claimed their heritage from an unprecedented union of elf and man (other than for high purpose). Such a place might be conducive to this kind of story. Firiel means mortal woman or she who died. The name was first given to Miriel where it makes sense. It's use in this poem suggests that it doesn't relate to a specific real person, rather a wish or as many fairytales are a warning or explanation of why you can't do what you might wish...

It is lovely but it is middle earth legend not history.

[Faramir Jones]

According to an 'editorial' footnote by Tolkien, which I think people might find interesting:

The name was borne by a princess of Gondor, through whom Aragorn claimed descent from the Southern line. It was also the name of a daughter of Elanor, daughter of Sam, but her name, if connected with the rhyme, must be derived from it; it could not have arisen in Westmarch.

Earlier, Tolkien said that The Man in the Moon Came Down Too Soon and The Last Ship 'must be derived ultimately from Gondor', and that the poems were 'only re-handlings of Southern matter'. So while the stories are of Gondorian origin, we can't be sure what was in the mind of the original Gondorian composer, though I like the suggestion of Nerwen:

"Firiel" would be some unknown person's idea of how the "sailing into the West" business worked, rather than a true story.

[morwen edhelwen]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

In response to another thread I was reading one of Tolkien's letters to Pauline Baynes where he says that these poems are "pictures seen in a tapestry of antiquity" . As has been pointed out they are not factual even in the way say that the song of Beren and Luthien that Aragorn sings in LOTR is .. the immortal elves can preserve their oral tradition in the way that mortals can not.

It has internal "evidence" that this poem has its origins (within the conceit of it being folklore of a created world) in Belfalas where the elves had the harbour Edhellond and where the princes claimed their heritage from an unprecedented union of elf and man (other than for high purpose). Such a place might be conducive to this kind of story. Firiel means mortal woman or she who died. The name was first given to Miriel where it makes sense. It's use in this poem suggests that it doesn't relate to a specific real person, rather a wish or as many fairytales are a warning or explanation of why you can't do what you might wish...

It is lovely but it is middle earth legend not history.

so does anyone have a thought on whether the time of 3 AM and the phrase "looked out" as in "lookout" have any significance? Tolkien could have used "awoke" or 6 AM instead...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by morwen edhelwen

so does anyone have a thought on whether the time of 3 AM and the phrase "looked out" as in "lookout" have any significance? Tolkien could have used "awoke" or 6 AM instead...

Presumably, because dawn in that particular place and time of year came around 3:00 AM. Why should it be 6:00 AM?

If you'll forgive me for saying this, morwen, I think you're being a bit too literal in your interpretation of this poem.

[morwen edhelwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Presumably, because dawn in that particular place and time of year came around 3:00 AM. Why should it be 6:00 AM?

If you'll forgive me for saying this, morwen, I think you're being a bit too literal in your interpretation of this poem.

Of course I forgive you! I just wondered, that's all. I have a... problem with literalism.

[Galadriel55]

I can't resist posting here; I'm totall in love with this poem. It's my favourite by far out of The Tales of T. B.

I think this might be a "myth in a mythology", or a made up story withing a made up story. It fits in ME just like ME fits in our world.

But aside from legendarium logistics, when I read the piece I think of dreams vs realism. Firiel comes to the river dressed as if for a holiday wishing to go with the Elves, and realises that she cannot, and comes back an ordinary person, rational and practical. She's like a person who discovers that their fate/destiny isn't what they would want it to be. Or a child who lost her childhood.

[Faramir Jones]

It is a lovely poem, Galadriel55. I've often wondered how much re-handling was done by the relevant hobbit (or hobbits) of the original Gondorian material, so was interested in what you said:

I think this might be a "myth in a mythology", or a made up story withing a made up story. It fits in ME just like ME fits in our world.

Perhaps the original Gondorian composer, inspired by the going over Sea of so many elves (and two hobbits) at the end of the Third Age, was speculating about how a Gondorian woman would react, given the same opportunity.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Perhaps the original Gondorian composer, inspired by the going over Sea of so many elves (and two hobbits) at the end of the Third Age, was speculating about how a Gondorian woman would react, given the same opportunity.

Or maybe he was inspired by the fact that Elves have to go and Men in general have to stay... And with the Elves leaves the high and beautiful...