Faramir's (and Boromir's) Dream

[Nerwen]

The dream was sent by an anonymus person, and probably fate. But I think that in LotR fate hardy does anything by accident. I think that this time fate (in the face of Eru, who planned out all the events of the world up to the very end) chose Galadriel to act through. Galadriel has her "magical" mirror, through which she can see the future. She also has a gift of telepathy, which means that can speak using just her thought, not her actual voice. I think that Fate, or Eru made her want to find out a little bit about the future. Galadriel decided that she is the one who is destined to push one of Denethor's sons to come to Rivendell, so she sent the dream and spoke in it. She is wise enough not to blurt out everything, which would turn Denny against the mission of destroying the Ring, because he would want the Ring hinself.

Sorry, but this is just another way of saying, "Galadriel sent it". Which I think is most unlikely, for reasons already stated.

Originally Posted by Legate

Relatedly, I see no reason why Gandalf, or even less Galadriel, would send a prophetic dream to some random guy in Gondor. At least Galadriel: that would be indeed totally random, as Galadriel had nothing to do with Gondor.

And also, if the dream had been sent by one of the characters, I believe there'd be some hint of this somewhere, and there isn't.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Orogonally posted by Galadriel55
Maybe fate chose Boro because he would need to go through the stage of a desparate desire for the Ring anyways, and it does less damage to the mission, to Gondor, and to many other people when Boro goes through it near Rauros. Imagie what would have happened if Farry went instead:
...2)Faramir would probably help Frodo AT LEAST up to the Ithilien. That would prevent Frodo from meeting Gollum at the right time, and he's the one who actually destroys the Ring, even if accidentally. Moreover, this means that Frodo would have met Boromir near Henneth Annun, and his view of Frodo's story would be much different from Farry's. If Farry would have been with Frodo when they would've met Boro, it would turn out worse, because of their relationship. Farry would tell Boro way more than Frodo would, and he would follow Boro's instructions, like he normally does.

I see the situation differently here. I think "fate" (probably Eru, possibly through Manwe) preferred Faramir but sent the message to Boromir as a back up to commit Boromir to the future Fellowship if he insisted [allowing for free will to be effective] on being the one seeking Imladris---I think as much for vainglory as the reasons he gave the Council.

With Faramir in the Fellowship, and not unhappy to defer to Aragorn, he would have agreed (knowing the lay of the land best) to accompany Frodo and Sam all the way, or at least enough to get the hobbits past Boromir.

With a little rewriting Tollers could still have Pippin and Merry be captured and the Three Walkers pursue the orcs while Aragorn sntrusted aiding Frodo and Sam to Faramir.
This also sets up an interesting dynamic of Frodo-Sam-Faramir-Gollum in Mordor, including how Faramir might be tempted by prolonged exposure to the Ring.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I think it was both. It is equally lacking to say that it was only Boromir's pride that made him take the task, as it is to say that it was out of pure love: we know it was not. But he had love for his brother, that is a fact.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I've been trying to unravel Boromir's complicated character ever since I read the story. Granted, it turns out to more a gushy man-crush for Sean Bean's performance, which I think in many ways "softens" the book Boromir. The movies concentrated on the best part of the character, the troubled and conflicted man who "fell," but in the end redeemed himself. In the forefront of the books, you see his arrogance and at times very childish, immature, behavior. Tolkien in one letter calls him the "bossy brother" of Faramir, and that could be a hangover from the earlier drafts where Boromir becomes Aragorn's rival in Minas Tirith.

Although, there is far more to Boromir than his pride and big-brother bossiness:

Certainly high praise from Eomer comparing him to the "swifts Sons of Eorl" and admiration for a "lordly and kindly manner" from Pippin, should warrant some good credit to Boromir's character than simply an arrogant, bossy knumbskull.

Both of these comments are in reply to my original comment,

Originally Posted by Bethberry

In short, I think Boromir is full of himself and that's what makes him insist he take the journey, believing that he alone can do the task.

so I have some explaining to do. And I must beg your indulgence for a long reply that probably isn't long enough. But it’s great to see a thread in Books taking off the way this one did (even if I did have to shock a little to get it going).

I limited my comments to the Council of Elrond because I thought there Boromir’s character flaws—those which made him most susceptible to the Ring—were most revealed and those were the traits which likely most influenced him to insist he undertake the journey to Imladris. We never see the scenes where he is sent to find the meaning of the dream’s riddle; that is simply reported, by himself at the CoE and by Faramir much later in WotW.

Boromir comes to the CoE with all the assumed authority and self-assuredness of those who feel themselves entitled. He makes judgments based on appearance, with both Bilbo and Aragorn (dressed in the poor clothes of Strider). He crosses words with Aragorn but it is Aragorn who comes out of the repartee with dignity, even though Boromir’s more archaic language shows him to be standing on his dignity fairly often. And Boromir is the one who is loathe to destroy the Ring, arguing that the Ring could be used for good purpose.

Originally Posted by Boromir, CoE

The Men of Gondor are valiant, and they will never submit; but they may be beaten down. Valour needs first strength, and then a weapon. Let the Ring be your weapon, if it has such power as you say. Take it and go forth to victory!

Any reader who has accepted Gandalf’s explanation to Frodo about the Ring must surely wonder at that. And for that matter, there is Tolkien’s explanation, in the Foreword to the Second Edition, of how the Ring would relate to World War II, which also can be a gloss upon Boromir’s misplaced self confidence. And then again, when the Nine embark upon their journey, Boromir is reprimanded by Elrond for blowing his horn inappropriately.

It is not until Caradhras that we see any kindness in Boromir. And it is that very kindness which he uses to attempt to persuade Frodo into giving him the Ring. Do we ever see him display love? In his actions, he is mostly what Tom Shippey calls “mere furious dauntlessness” and, as Shippey says, it is Boromir who can most easily be imagined as a Ringwraith.

Most of the good we hear of Boromir comes after his death, like the claims of Eomer and Pippin which our Boro88 has quoted, so it is retold rather than displayed by the character in action. In fact, his positive attributes become the stuff of the archaic and heroic style which Tolkien moves into as LotR progresses. Shippey argues that the hobbits lead the reader into LotR. Something similar could be said of Boromir, except that by example he leads them away from the Ring towards right action. Thus he becomes incorporated into the heroic in the same way that ancient stories reflected earlier stories incompletely.

So Boromir’s good aspects belong to a particular place in Tolkien’s work. And here my argument is very dependent upon Shippey’s discussion of Tolkien’s clash of styles, the ‘higher criticism’, and in particular of the word ‘lays’ (as in Macaulay’s The Lays of Ancient Rome) in The Road to Middle-earth and Author of the Century (although Shippey isn’t responsible for my use of it to discuss Boromir).

Originally Posted by Shippey, AotC, 235 ff

It became widely believed that behind the extensive epics of Homer, and Virgil, and the Histories of Livy, and Beowulf, and even the accounts of the Old Testament, there must have been early pre-literate traditions which were used by the later writers—traditions probably expressed in short poems composed at or near the time of the events the commemorated. . . . people learned to read histories and historical poems with a kind of double vision, to see both the event being described and the context in which it was described. . . . [Tolkien] wished above all to create the sense of age, of antiquity with yet greater antiquity behind it.

Boromir’s positive traits do not belong in the modern novelistic passages but in those which echo the old epics, the language of antiquity. Boromir the character moves into the realm of legend or of the timelessness of myth. This is most clearly seen in the passages from the Appendices which discuss the love Boromir has for Faramir in a heroic style, as if the Appendices provided strata of stories to disentangle. It is almost as if the Appendices are texts other than that of LotR, part of the lore and annals which are incomplete. So in LotR there is the Event and there is the Record, and reading LotR involves developing a double vision.

To imagine how Boromir came to be chosen over Faramir to solve the riddle of the dreams, to me, involves seeing this double vision and taking the one which most fully explains his psychology. Those who, possibly, are more in tune with the sense of a greater antiquity behind the story will prefer the Boromir of legend. But I think it isn’t quite so clear that a fact in the Appendices is always of the same canonical weight, as it were, with the story proper.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Why do we even need to assume that anyone or anything or any force 'sent' the dream to either of them? Aren't dreams self-generated? I've always just assumed that Faramir and Boromir didn't just 'get' the dream but were able to have it thanks to their Numenorean birthright. One of the true marks of power in Middle Earth is an aptitude for prescience, the gift of vision. The more powerful figures are able to exercise come control over that, but with others it is more intuitive: for Faramir and Boromir it came in the form of passive dreams. That Faramir had the dream more often is testimony to his greater will and truer Numenorean heritage.

So what are they 'seeing' if it's not being sent? Just the truth, plain and simple. The Ring had been found and was headed one way or another to Rivendell as were a bunch of other people; so it was "accident" (that is, fate) that it was going to happen, but fate didn't send the dream. But fate did write the fact of this gathering into the fabric of reality and for those with the ability to read that fabric it was there waiting for them to be dreamed.

As to why Boromir went instead of Faramir, it's because he was an arrogant man who felt that nobody but him was worthy of the task. Bb is (once again) right: he's a "good man" by the heroic code he lives by and which others value; which is not to say that he's a "bad man" by other estimations, just flawed.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Why do we even need to assume that anyone or anything or any force 'sent' the dream to either of them? Aren't dreams self-generated? I've always just assumed that Faramir and Boromir didn't just 'get' the dream but were able to have it thanks to their Numenorean birthright. One of the true marks of power in Middle Earth is an aptitude for prescience, the gift of vision. The more powerful figures are able to exercise come control over that, but with others it is more intuitive: for Faramir and Boromir it came in the form of passive dreams. That Faramir had the dream more often is testimony to his greater will and truer Numenorean heritage.

I'd always assumed it was fate that sent the dream, but never did I think of it in terms of a Numenorean birthright, but it would make sense. That would certainly explain why Faramir received the dream more often than Boromir. It was stated he showed more of the ancient line than his brother (or at least I believe this was stated).

No one needed to send the dreams. Because Frodo had several prophetic dreams himself. One pertaining to the ship and the leaving from Middle-Earth. I think it's possible that those that experienced such dreams didn't have them sent by an external force, but as Fordim said they were self-generated and self-contained.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

No one needed to send the dreams. Because Frodo had several prophetic dreams himself. One pertaining to the ship and the leaving from Middle-Earth. I think it's possible that those that experienced such dreams didn't have them sent by an external force, but as Fordim said they were self-generated and self-contained.

I've always thought Frodo's dream of the Havens and seeing Valinor to have been somehow caused by Bombadil or Goldberry, since it was in their house that Frodo had that dream.

As for Boromir and Faramir's dream being "self-generated", I have to wonder why Men of Gondor would have as part of their dreams "Halflings", which were hardly a prominent element in the Gondorian pysche.

[Morwen]

There is a difference though between Frodo's dream visions and the Faramir/Boromir dream.

The brothers' dream isn't simply giving information about the future (There shall be counsels taken ... There shall be shown a token). The first line of the dream verse lays a command on them to take a course of action (Seek for the Sword that was broken). The prophetic lines that follow then explain why that command should be heeded.

The command nature of the dream, to me, takes the dream out of the self generated category and makes it seem more likely that it is a directive coming from a source.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I limited my comments to the Council of Elrond because I thought there Boromir’s character flaws—those which made him most susceptible to the Ring—were most revealed and those were the traits which likely most influenced him to insist he undertake the journey to Imladris. We never see the scenes where he is sent to find the meaning of the dream’s riddle; that is simply reported, by himself at the CoE and by Faramir much later in WotW.

Boromir comes to the CoE with all the assumed authority and self-assuredness of those who feel themselves entitled. He makes judgments based on appearance, with both Bilbo and Aragorn (dressed in the poor clothes of Strider). He crosses words with Aragorn but it is Aragorn who comes out of the repartee with dignity, even though Boromir’s more archaic language shows him to be standing on his dignity fairly often. And Boromir is the one who is loathe to destroy the Ring, arguing that the Ring could be used for good purpose.



Any reader who has accepted Gandalf’s explanation to Frodo about the Ring must surely wonder at that. And for that matter, there is Tolkien’s explanation, in the Foreword to the Second Edition, of how the Ring would relate to World War II, which also can be a gloss upon Boromir’s misplaced self confidence. And then again, when the Nine embark upon their journey, Boromir is reprimanded by Elrond for blowing his horn inappropriately.

It is not until Caradhras that we see any kindness in Boromir. And it is that very kindness which he uses to attempt to persuade Frodo into giving him the Ring. Do we ever see him display love? In his actions, he is mostly what Tom Shippey calls “mere furious dauntlessness” and, as Shippey says, it is Boromir who can most easily be imagined as a Ringwraith.
(...)
To imagine how Boromir came to be chosen over Faramir to solve the riddle of the dreams, to me, involves seeing this double vision and taking the one which most fully explains his psychology. Those who, possibly, are more in tune with the sense of a greater antiquity behind the story will prefer the Boromir of legend. But I think it isn’t quite so clear that a fact in the Appendices is always of the same canonical weight, as it were, with the story proper.

I, in the name of all, would skip any discussion about "canon". Somebody could then come with early HoME drafts of Boromir or whatnot. Although I see what you mean. But for me, Boromir = all parts we know about Boromir's character put together, and that is from every source. And I am not looking at Boromir from the "outside" perspective - like what kind of character Tolkien wrote him to be - but from the "inside" perspective, as a really-existing person, so to say. And from that pov, see what I said in my short reply-post above. Boromir had these sort of prideful, arrogant etc. parts of his character, and then there was his love to this brother and the better parts of his character. I have always seen it the way that Boromir was raised in Gondor by his father who was rather blind in many matters himself, but he even lacked his father's keen foresight (example: I would imagine Denethor would not underestimate Aragorn just because he had worn clothes, he will probably, in contrary to Boromir, notice that there is more to him than on first sight, yet still, just like Boromir, he would initially have sort of contempt about him). Boromir was raised in his world of Gondor, where most men seem to have this idea of "we are the center of the world and we are the only ones saving it!". He just never had encountered anything else, and so at the Council he first acts like this, and eventually, only slowly by his stay with the Fellowship, I think he begins to see more and becomes sort of more perceptive. That's just in response to saying how Boromir is totally full of himself at the Council and gets sometimes slightly better during the journey - I guess it makes sense, if you are with the people who behave humble or seem unimportant to you and at the same time you see their qualities, you sort of learn to be humble yourself.

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Why do we even need to assume that anyone or anything or any force 'sent' the dream to either of them? Aren't dreams self-generated? I've always just assumed that Faramir and Boromir didn't just 'get' the dream but were able to have it thanks to their Numenorean birthright. One of the true marks of power in Middle Earth is an aptitude for prescience, the gift of vision. The more powerful figures are able to exercise come control over that, but with others it is more intuitive: for Faramir and Boromir it came in the form of passive dreams. That Faramir had the dream more often is testimony to his greater will and truer Numenorean heritage.

I disagree about the dream acting on "self-basis". If it was just a dream vision, like Faramir walking in the field, suddenly seeing a Hobbit, a sword, a valley with Elves in it, a Ring, and so on; simply a set of cryptic visual clues, then whatever. But there is the voice, and the voice speaks to Faramir. You have a dialogue, effectively (or not a dialogue, since Faramir himself does not reply, but you have two subjects there, the "message-sender" and the receiver).

And that is just to add to what Morwen said, which I think is really good point also:

Originally Posted by Morwen

There is a difference though between Frodo's dream visions and the Faramir/Boromir dream.

The brothers' dream isn't simply giving information about the future (There shall be counsels taken ... There shall be shown a token). The first line of the dream verse lays a command on them to take a course of action (Seek for the Sword that was broken). The prophetic lines that follow then explain why that command should be heeded.

The command nature of the dream, to me, takes the dream out of the self generated category and makes it seem more likely that it is a directive coming from a source.