Faramir's (and Boromir's) Dream

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Why do we even need to assume that anyone or anything or any force 'sent' the dream to either of them? Aren't dreams self-generated? I've always just assumed that Faramir and Boromir didn't just 'get' the dream but were able to have it thanks to their Numenorean birthright. One of the true marks of power in Middle Earth is an aptitude for prescience, the gift of vision. The more powerful figures are able to exercise come control over that, but with others it is more intuitive: for Faramir and Boromir it came in the form of passive dreams. That Faramir had the dream more often is testimony to his greater will and truer Numenorean heritage.

I'd always assumed it was fate that sent the dream, but never did I think of it in terms of a Numenorean birthright, but it would make sense. That would certainly explain why Faramir received the dream more often than Boromir. It was stated he showed more of the ancient line than his brother (or at least I believe this was stated).

No one needed to send the dreams. Because Frodo had several prophetic dreams himself. One pertaining to the ship and the leaving from Middle-Earth. I think it's possible that those that experienced such dreams didn't have them sent by an external force, but as Fordim said they were self-generated and self-contained.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

No one needed to send the dreams. Because Frodo had several prophetic dreams himself. One pertaining to the ship and the leaving from Middle-Earth. I think it's possible that those that experienced such dreams didn't have them sent by an external force, but as Fordim said they were self-generated and self-contained.

I've always thought Frodo's dream of the Havens and seeing Valinor to have been somehow caused by Bombadil or Goldberry, since it was in their house that Frodo had that dream.

As for Boromir and Faramir's dream being "self-generated", I have to wonder why Men of Gondor would have as part of their dreams "Halflings", which were hardly a prominent element in the Gondorian pysche.

[Morwen]

There is a difference though between Frodo's dream visions and the Faramir/Boromir dream.

The brothers' dream isn't simply giving information about the future (There shall be counsels taken ... There shall be shown a token). The first line of the dream verse lays a command on them to take a course of action (Seek for the Sword that was broken). The prophetic lines that follow then explain why that command should be heeded.

The command nature of the dream, to me, takes the dream out of the self generated category and makes it seem more likely that it is a directive coming from a source.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I limited my comments to the Council of Elrond because I thought there Boromir’s character flaws—those which made him most susceptible to the Ring—were most revealed and those were the traits which likely most influenced him to insist he undertake the journey to Imladris. We never see the scenes where he is sent to find the meaning of the dream’s riddle; that is simply reported, by himself at the CoE and by Faramir much later in WotW.

Boromir comes to the CoE with all the assumed authority and self-assuredness of those who feel themselves entitled. He makes judgments based on appearance, with both Bilbo and Aragorn (dressed in the poor clothes of Strider). He crosses words with Aragorn but it is Aragorn who comes out of the repartee with dignity, even though Boromir’s more archaic language shows him to be standing on his dignity fairly often. And Boromir is the one who is loathe to destroy the Ring, arguing that the Ring could be used for good purpose.



Any reader who has accepted Gandalf’s explanation to Frodo about the Ring must surely wonder at that. And for that matter, there is Tolkien’s explanation, in the Foreword to the Second Edition, of how the Ring would relate to World War II, which also can be a gloss upon Boromir’s misplaced self confidence. And then again, when the Nine embark upon their journey, Boromir is reprimanded by Elrond for blowing his horn inappropriately.

It is not until Caradhras that we see any kindness in Boromir. And it is that very kindness which he uses to attempt to persuade Frodo into giving him the Ring. Do we ever see him display love? In his actions, he is mostly what Tom Shippey calls “mere furious dauntlessness” and, as Shippey says, it is Boromir who can most easily be imagined as a Ringwraith.
(...)
To imagine how Boromir came to be chosen over Faramir to solve the riddle of the dreams, to me, involves seeing this double vision and taking the one which most fully explains his psychology. Those who, possibly, are more in tune with the sense of a greater antiquity behind the story will prefer the Boromir of legend. But I think it isn’t quite so clear that a fact in the Appendices is always of the same canonical weight, as it were, with the story proper.

I, in the name of all, would skip any discussion about "canon". Somebody could then come with early HoME drafts of Boromir or whatnot. Although I see what you mean. But for me, Boromir = all parts we know about Boromir's character put together, and that is from every source. And I am not looking at Boromir from the "outside" perspective - like what kind of character Tolkien wrote him to be - but from the "inside" perspective, as a really-existing person, so to say. And from that pov, see what I said in my short reply-post above. Boromir had these sort of prideful, arrogant etc. parts of his character, and then there was his love to this brother and the better parts of his character. I have always seen it the way that Boromir was raised in Gondor by his father who was rather blind in many matters himself, but he even lacked his father's keen foresight (example: I would imagine Denethor would not underestimate Aragorn just because he had worn clothes, he will probably, in contrary to Boromir, notice that there is more to him than on first sight, yet still, just like Boromir, he would initially have sort of contempt about him). Boromir was raised in his world of Gondor, where most men seem to have this idea of "we are the center of the world and we are the only ones saving it!". He just never had encountered anything else, and so at the Council he first acts like this, and eventually, only slowly by his stay with the Fellowship, I think he begins to see more and becomes sort of more perceptive. That's just in response to saying how Boromir is totally full of himself at the Council and gets sometimes slightly better during the journey - I guess it makes sense, if you are with the people who behave humble or seem unimportant to you and at the same time you see their qualities, you sort of learn to be humble yourself.

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Why do we even need to assume that anyone or anything or any force 'sent' the dream to either of them? Aren't dreams self-generated? I've always just assumed that Faramir and Boromir didn't just 'get' the dream but were able to have it thanks to their Numenorean birthright. One of the true marks of power in Middle Earth is an aptitude for prescience, the gift of vision. The more powerful figures are able to exercise come control over that, but with others it is more intuitive: for Faramir and Boromir it came in the form of passive dreams. That Faramir had the dream more often is testimony to his greater will and truer Numenorean heritage.

I disagree about the dream acting on "self-basis". If it was just a dream vision, like Faramir walking in the field, suddenly seeing a Hobbit, a sword, a valley with Elves in it, a Ring, and so on; simply a set of cryptic visual clues, then whatever. But there is the voice, and the voice speaks to Faramir. You have a dialogue, effectively (or not a dialogue, since Faramir himself does not reply, but you have two subjects there, the "message-sender" and the receiver).

And that is just to add to what Morwen said, which I think is really good point also:

Originally Posted by Morwen

There is a difference though between Frodo's dream visions and the Faramir/Boromir dream.

The brothers' dream isn't simply giving information about the future (There shall be counsels taken ... There shall be shown a token). The first line of the dream verse lays a command on them to take a course of action (Seek for the Sword that was broken). The prophetic lines that follow then explain why that command should be heeded.

The command nature of the dream, to me, takes the dream out of the self generated category and makes it seem more likely that it is a directive coming from a source.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

There are, to me, certain aspects of that dream which point to its source in the Higher Powers. Specifically, the foreknowledge that:

The Ring would be in Rivendell.

Counsels would be taken (possibly indicating a council would be held).

The Ring would be shown.

A halfling would step forth in significant way.

Gandalf never demonstrated any such degree of prophecy. Moreover, if he had known, I don't think he would have used — nor would he have been allowed to use — his abilities in such a way. This smacks much more of the Valar, and their behind the scenes activities, and Pronouncements of Doom, IMHO. They are much more the master chess players than anyone in Middle-earth, and the convenient timing of the dream, as well as the fact that it came to both brothers, thus helping ensure that one of them would go to Rivendell, seems to me a thing that they would do. Though I rather suspect they might've preferred Faramir as their messenger.