Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Agan

No. Or maybe yes but not right now. I'm getting tired of your aggression.

Now I'm really baffled - and I mean in general terms and not just this game. I mean I have heard a lot of people (oftentimes wolves but not everytime) claiming I am aggressive, game after game. But I don't think myself being that. Now this is a really good example of it.

So how is that aggressive? Please tell me.

And I mean really. I just don't understand it.

Okay I'm a non-native speaker, but I don't think I'm that wrong in thinking the above quote was not aggressive (about the discussion between me and Shasta, please look back to my previous posts where I stated my view on speculating about other peoples' guilt). Or does someone think it is aggressive? I really woud like to learn about that.

Or any other quote - or the vague impression-grabbing remark without a specific quote *cough Greenie cough* - people have made. I hate these memes people cling into when they have either nothing to say or their own evil agendas suggest them (or like with the case of Agan here are blinded by their loss to see the bigger picture).

With my experience I'd say it's basically the wolves who do that and make the less informed ordos follow them.


Well anyway, I need to make my list so as I can get to sleep as it is to late already now...


EDIT: x'd from my last post.

[Rikae]

I believe a number of the views on any given thread are from bots/Google/etc., so I wouldn't put too much stock in those numbers. I'd rather not bother a mod about it if possible; anyone accessing illicit information will only spoil the game for themselves and, if they actually make use of that information, be suspected and looked on with contempt by everyone when the game is done. I don't think the people playing this game are so unsportsmanlike; it seems disrespectful to suggest it. We all know these games only work when played fairly.

I'd also like to remind everyone to keep their tone within reasonably respectful limits, and be mindful of the fact that words can seem harsher on the screen than the writer might intend.

That's all for now.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I believe a number of the views on any given thread are from bots/Google/etc., so I wouldn't put too much stock in those numbers. I'd rather not bother a mod about it if possible; anyone accessing illicit information will only spoil the game for themselves and, if they actually make use of that information, be suspected and looked on with contempt by everyone when the game is done. I don't think the people playing this game are so unsportsmanlike; it seems disrespectful to suggest it. We all know these games only work when played fairly.

I do agree and admit I hadn't thought of that bot-view thing. That might explain some of the numbers.

But at the same time I must say that at one time of the Day a few posts here seemed to have it like self-evident that people were peeking in there. And to that I protest.


Bah, I have been writing a post if that needs to be posted, but I was wawering whether that was a good idea or not, but now Boro's vote made it clear. I will send it in a short while...

And really Boro, voting me on the grounds that I voiced a general suspicion someone might peek at the dead-thread after a host of people had speculated on it and some had even given the air they had done it anyway or that it would be natural to do it?

I agree with Rikae that the trust is the key word, and what should guide us (and I'm ready for any mod-surveillance) but there's nothing to boost the trust than a threat of being caught...

I just plain disliked the speculation on "everyone has been there anyway"...



A post coming soon, to hopefully retrail the wagon.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I just plain disliked the speculation on "everyone has been there anyway"...

Fair enough, I took that from Ang, Agan, phantom...etc as minor joking at expressing the desire to so badly want to see the thread, but how they can't yet. Not as, "nah nah nah, I'm breaking the rules and looking at the game thread. Why aren't you? Everyone else is!"

And I still see nothing beneficial to come out and start insinuating we're all a bunch of cheaters, and if it's ever proven that people are cheating now they should be modfired, possibly banned. A sentiment I do agree with you on, but I don't think this is the time, nor place, to start insinuating there's a bunch of cheaters around, especially since you are familiar and met many of us here.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And really Boro, voting me on the grounds that I voiced a general suspicion someone might peek at the dead-thread after a host of people had speculated on it and some had even given the air they had done it anyway or that it would be natural to do it?

Oh Nog, you know full well that's not the only reason I have for voting you. You were most likely going to be my vote today, barring some unseen revelation of information, even before the "don't look at the dead thread" stuff. That just tipped you over to my, I'm extremely confident about my vote today. If I'm wrong, you have my apologies, but not as much as normal, since you can move onto to the desired next life. Shall I eat a toaster or something else this time?

[Nogrod]

Okay, most of this was made before I saw the situation on the thread right now, but it seems to be more or less accurate anyway... So I will just send it with few modifications and then add a few comments on a separate post.


So

I'm the seer.


~*~

Thank you Shasta.

Thank you Aganzir.

I love you both in the RL but will claim you partly responsible if we lose - just because you were too tied with your love-affair. That was important to you, I know, but not what made the game. You were so blind and wrong!

Sorry to say this, but you both made it to me impossibe to act any otherwise. And really Agan, you couldn't be that blind! I left you like hundred clues!!!

And props to you wolves & cobblers to brainwash many innocents to make this true. It seems we are going to try and fight this from Mandos then. You won the first round, let's see if we can fight back?

I hoped I could have had a few more dreams before going to Mandos (going there before the guys who could come back to inform you) but now it seems that the ranger can give me only one more - and that we have already lost one of our possible comebacks - and two innocents with it.

Like I said on D1, we need the ranger and the lovers to stay with us.

And then one of our lovers started both hinting he's a lover as a banter and then later panicked... No Shasta, that's not the way to play. I tried to say on D1 that the lovers should be hush-hush... but did you listen to that?

I hope the Ranger knows better to keep out of the fray and not jump like hundred meters if suspected by one person, and will on time deliver things to us.
Well, s/he's our only hope for any information now.

I myself thought I played it foolishly to reveal Agan's innocence that obviously on D1 after dreaming about her, but at the moment it seems that wasn't such a big mistake at all as no one paid attention to it, notr even Agan herself... *writes to self: next time a seer, hint more clearly as no one gets nothing anyway*


If the DL had been one that I could live with, I wouldn't be doing this but would try to see for surviving some other way. But sadly I can't stay awake to 6AM . So here we are.


So as it is what it is, and I can see what the wolves are doing, sadly, with the help of known innocents, and general idiotics.... I just feel I need to reveal now.



Agan is Beren indeed .

the phantom is a cobbler.

I'd appreciate one more dream of the living *nods towards the ranger*


ADD... and Boro looks really suspicious, as well as Legate, but back to them in a moment (Jesus , I just saw the time...)

[satansaloser2005]

++Boro


I don't have time to consider Nog's revelation right now, but I suspect Boro a bit as it is and I think he'll make a decent "rival" candidate, rather than a possible throwaway on Lottie.


That's it from me, I'm afraid. Hopefully I'll still be around toMorrow to look at more.

[Boromir88]

...and of course, with absolute no way to prove anything of what Nog claims.

*sigh* I'm really too grouchy to seriously think on this and don't look forward to the headache that's coming from it.

Agan and phantom are understandable choices for a Nog-seer, or any seer for that matter. And while I've also thought phantom was up to no good, I've continually felt worse about Nog after my first reaction.

Even with Shasta's death, I was telling myself not to buy "Nog is being set up argument" because Nog witnessed my wolf-pack to the exact same thing with Nessa-wolf in his game.

If you're the seer, Nog, you get the choice of what I have to eat. If a wolf or cobbler you be, to the death deserveth ye.

[the phantom]

Well thank you, Nogrod. I suspected something like that would be coming. My job is at least a bit easier. Now I merely have to decide whether you are Cobbler or Wolf.

The most obvious point speaking against your Seership is your lack of survival instinct. You know good and well that under this format there is no need for you to drop dream hints!! Even were I not a dream-victim there would be no way you could convince me that you would play in such a fashion. Under these rules the Seer is welcome to be very well hidden, as he cannot be legitimately "killed", as he is still able to reveal his dreams through Glorfy and Lovers even after death, and use his dreams to positively influence the outcomes in the Mandos thread.

Sorry, but-
1) Phantom is not a Cobbler.
2) Nog-Seer would not play as you have.

True Seer- do I even need to bother telling you not to counter-reveal? I have a guess at your identity, and I'm thinking that my instruction is needless, but just in case...

So- where does everyone else stand on this? I'm thinking that we almost have to lynch him now even though it bugs me that he could very well be nothing more than a Cobbler and thus he is completely fulfilling his purpose by being lynched.

[Loslote]

I'm here...

I'm rather inclined to believe Nog - I've seen him get...meaner before as a Gifted. I don't think he can say that Shasta played badly, though. We'll find out in Endgame why the wolves killed him, and until then, it doesn't do much good to say it was all Shasta's fault. I mean, if he was at least trying to determine which specific people would have noticed the hints, that'd be one thing, but as it is, I can absolutely see why he attracted votes like a magnet.

That being said, let's hope Nog dreams us up a wolf toNight.

I do not like the option of Wilwa as the alternative candidate for the lynch. I haven't seen nearly enough of her to form a solid judgement. TP's being a cobbler makes Lommy look better, which means I'm left with Boro as my top choice. I'd vote for someone else if it came down to it, but he strikes me as the most suspicious.

EDIT: xed since Nog

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Lottie

I've seen him get...meaner before as a Gifted.

That isn't my experience with him. This "meanness" you speak of fits nicely into my primary point about him- that for someone claiming to be a Seer he pretty much went the opposite direction when it came to survival tactics. His vote-attracting smacks of a Cobbler, and this false reveal (I realize that no one else can know it's false) also fits the mold.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by the phantom

His vote-attracting smacks of a Cobbler, and this false reveal (I realize that no one else can know it's false) also fits the mold.

If he was trying to die, he was already well on his way there. He's already got, what, four votes? If dying was his goal, he just had to keep doing what he was doing. The Seer-reveal kept him alive for another Night, not doomed him.

[the phantom]

But Lottie, it paves the way for him to continue serving a purpose once in Mandos. He's already assured his death in one fashion or another, and now the only missing component is having an angle to work after death. Now we see what it is.

Plus there's always the remote hope that there will be a counter-reveal, particularly if the true Seer is also on the chopping block and is put forward as a suitable replacement candidate. A Cobbler would be foolish to ignore that glorious possibility.

[the phantom]

Leaving for home now. Be back soon.

[Nessa Telrunya]

I hate to say it, but I believe Nog. I don't think it would be particularly beneficial to false reveal as a seer at this point, and he seems worked up enough about the Lovers' playing that it strikes me as sincere.

So I hope I'm right..

++the phantom

Because it's more likely than not that one of the two is a wolf-cobbler.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by the phantom

But Lottie, it paves the way for him to continue serving a purpose once in Mandos. He's already assured his death in one fashion or another, and now the only missing component is having an angle to work after death. Now we see what it is.

Just like Fea suggested, you mean? But people already know that's an option. They won't trust him completely without proof. Dead people can vote to find out roles, right? So maybe they vote Nog, find out for sure if he's the seer or not. Especially if this:

Plus there's always the remote hope that there will be a counter-reveal, particularly if the true Seer is also on the chopping block and is put forward as a suitable replacement candidate. A Cobbler would be foolish to ignore that glorious possibility.

Happens as well. With two reveals, a supposed Cobbler!Nog would not have the automatic power in Mandos that you seem to assume.

EDIT: xed since the post I quoted

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

So here's an amusing moment for the night...

We have to choose to believe either the phantom, or Nog.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

We have to choose to believe either the phantom, or Nog.

Ask me the next day if we're both alive, because my answer right now is "neither."

[Nogrod]

My list then...

Boro: harped on everything willing to get me lynched. Read the posts and you see what I mean. His suspicions have been "twitter-impressions" (160 markers and nothing to say, really), my case for him is "fb-impressions" (a load more things to go with, if limited as wel).

Mith: her possible attempt to lounch a double lynch at the end of D1 makes me worried about her - even if I still love her and she despises me. Also her idea of lynching the BG is kind of dubious...

Greenie: looks really crafty and seems to vote like a baddie. I always suspect her, but I feel I'm not more wrong that I'm normally. She might be one of the wolves.

Glirdan: he looks very fishy but I'm not too sure. Might be just the oddness of him (meaning that our ideas don't oftentimes meet). Did I not suspect him that many times in thesegames he'd be my number one suspect, but knowing my leaning to suspect him I'm a bit reserved here.

Legate: I thought of him being oddly vague on D1 but toDay he looks more opportunistic than an ordinary innocent. I'm not positive of him being a wolf though.... rather a cobbler.

Lommy I'm drawn with between good and bad. What she says has been more or less reasonable and I know she has not had time to concentrate - but some points raised against her are not without merit. She is ambivalent against the normal measure.

Bleh, I see a host of people posting and I need to take a small break: back soon (OMG the time, but I just feel this matters now...)


*takes a break*



EDIT: x'd after Fea...

[Nogrod]

I see some of you wish for proof...


And clearly we need some, looking at the votes at the moment... ?



Well if I was a wolf or a cobbler I might have done the following ones as well, but if you think of it, I wouldn't have hang myself to these if I was not the seer...

So here's some what I put there for good and bad (I really feel bad now making the first ones)

Originally Posted by me on #107 D1

A short list of my feelings before the voting (short on explanations as I don't have time to write any longer analysis).

Innocent:
Aganzir - Good posting, innocent vibes, feels like she's trying to find the answers that are for the benefit of the village.

Innocentish:
the phantom - Generally makes good points a wolf might not wish to make, it's just that a few of them do not let me pick him into category above.
Anguirel - Seems getting the idea of our good and makes posts a wolf-Ang probably wouldn't.
Mith - For her comment on Legate (and for that familiar annoyance against anything I say... if she were a wolf she would be nicer to me ).

Could go either way:
Legate - Seems too happy to jump on some things I do disagree, but on the other hand hasn't said or done anything really suspicious.
Lommy - Basically seems to have the hang of it but has the air of avoiding things or, well, what some others have said, over-stating things. Smething says I should not trust her but on the other hand I find nothing clear-cut wrong.
Nerwen - Like someone said before: both clearly up to the situation but still mainly just bantering (was online only relatively early on the Day so that might be understandable).

Slightly worried:
Boro - the way he jumps on someone (yes, me) trying to turn the discussion on a more fruitful ground by saying it's "spinning things for my purposes" (so you should read they are bad) and after being questioned about that by some others, changing his point into me being a pessimist (which wasn't the point of my message) and thus suspicious? Odd, from him.


Of others I have not much to say. But will probably vote for one of them others.

Clearly separating Agan from others here but of course not saying she's a lover as that would have ben damming - and I felt bad afterwards making her this clearly innocent from others as I realisedc how terrible it would bre if the wolves realised I was the seer and thus I would have compromised the lovers. It's a minor comfort to me they picked the lover the other way around... but I do keep banging my head on he keabaorad for making that so evident in a game like this.

When it started looking bad and I needed to get to sleep, I felt I was forced to make this post (beginning of which is here:

Originally Posted by me on #139 D1

As time here passes away, I need to sleep and can't fight back against this bad idea spreading. So just read what I've said and make wise choises.

Agan - even if I think her innocent - on the contrary makes hasty choices. It is a debatable point whether we should lynch the "quiet" or "under-radar types" here or not. I do think they are easier to find out about in Mandos than here as it will be obvious some of the more active ones will end up there anyway. But as I said, the merits are relative.

I still insisted Agan was innocent even if she ran for me, but the more important thing on this occasion is the bolded part.

Re-organise the words from the "AS TIME HERE" - it is easily turned into "I AM THE SEER".

An odd way to start a paragraph: "As time here passes away, I need to sleep" but normal enough that no one pays attention if not looking for it.


And to anyone willing to suspect my points, how could I have guessed Agan was innocent with that certitude and so unwilling to come more particular with it (telling I had the lover would have been a disaster!!!)? I did even say that I would not suspect her even if she was coming at me with full frontal attack toDay - before she decided to reveal her role.


I liked many of tp's points on D1 but something bugged me there, thus I dreamt of him last Night and found out he is a cobbler.

If the ranger helps me, I can take two more dreams in. I checked this. I can dream of anyone I wish when I'm alive when I fall asleep.

So I dream toNight being protected (hopefully), and if you will not lynch me on the next Day I can dream of a living person even if I get killed then the next Night. So moving to Mandos I'll have the dream of N4 and may be then continue the fight from there.


So whom should I pick?

And bah, whom shoiuld I vote toDay? Soo late the day...

[Mithalwen]

Actually I know I am very out of touch but I don't see that the dream choices are particularly plausible. Phantom is an obvious early choice but either Shasta was top priority or he chose Night 2 someone who wasn't really under the gun. And who was the conveniently dead "known".

[Mithalwen]

I am more inclined to beleive Agan. Coded messages have been used often enough for a wily baddie to slip one in as a reserve but the switch is...a failsafe. I did think it odd it was that way around but assumed just luck of the draw,

Ang thanks. affection appreciated without prejudice in game.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

the switch is...a failsafe. I did think it odd it was that way around but assumed just luck of the draw,

and I too thought "gender bending! wow, how casually socially liberal Werewolf is! Maybe I should get my stepmother into it", but thought it was too politically incorrect to comment...which was lucky...

I look pretty bad now, don't I? I saved wolf-features yesterday. Looks like my long awaited holiday on the hither shore might come soonish...

So funny that this game means that Nogrod will now have to lie consistently for about a week, like Tony Blair in the last months of circa 2003 or something...

[Nogrod]

Oh my... Don't forget Fea... That was near decisive.

Some others who voted for me might be wolves (and I think there are one or two), but she had most of the info and still went that way.

Remember also that the wolves don't get caught in this game for making those evil decisions.


Well, I will fight for this from the other side of the thread if I'm sent there (if I feel you guys deserve my effort there), but you know losing the seer means that I can only try to help you with indirect things - and only with the ranger (if s/he dies at a proper time) I can really help you.



Up to you.

Boro and Fea top my list right now and I'd be ready to vote either. I know phantom is the cobbler so let's not waste the votes on him. Even if I'd love to play with him in Mandos...

[Aganzir]

I am disappointed.

I was looking forward to an ingenious saving attempt...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Agan is Beren indeed .

Ha!
No I'm not. I'm Lúthien.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Agan

Ha!
No I'm not. I'm Lúthien.

Seriously?! You switched the roles of you and Shasta purposefully for the sake of having that sort of trap up your sleeve later?!

If so, then I could totally kiss you right now!

(If you weren't already taken, of course.)

(Or am I mistaking the meaning of the tongue-out smiley? Is that "ha ha I'm joking" or "ha ha gotcha"?"

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Ha!
No I'm not. I'm Lúthien.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh man, that makes me feel way better about the vote I just cast.

[elronds_daughter]

Dear me. I don't like any of this at all. Nog, the seer?!? What? Gah. He could very well be being truthsome, and tp etc. ganging up on him to distract. Or he could be trying to fool us all into going after tp, which people will undoubtedly be willing to do, considering phanty's verbosity. I simply don't know which faction is right. Both of them have been pinging my "uh-oh" radar. I may abstain today if this goes on much longer.

[the phantom]

Nogrod- all that your long post tells me is that you are a good prepared Cobbler and that you planned ahead for the possibility of helping your side with a false reveal. If I had been assigned that role it is precisely what I would've done.

Everyone pay attention to this next bit-

About your Agan dream- YOU EASILY COULD HAVE ALSO LEFT A CODED HINT ABOUT HER SPECIFIC ROLE IF YOU SO CHOSE!!! But I guess you didn't. Why? Because you didn't know.

And once again I put forth that there's no way I would ever believe you'd be anything other than completely guarded as a Seer with a set-up like this. The idea that you were hinting to us on Day 1 is something no one should swallow, especially if you knew your dream target was so valuable!!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Everyone pay attention to this next bit-

About your Agan dream- YOU EASILY COULD HAVE ALSO LEFT A CODED HINT ABOUT HER SPECIFIC ROLE IF YOU SO CHOSE!!! But I guess you didn't. Why? Because you didn't know.

It's actually very rewarding to catch the phantom from making an intentionally bad argument to prove one's point... Just love it.

Think of it again, tp, if you were the seer and dreamt of a lover on N1, would you make a hint of any kind that you have a lover (which means losing two innocents if the baddies find out about it)? That dream is called nightmare from the seer's POV.

Sorry, bad call my friend...

But even if you manage to lynch me like it seems to go, I do love the fact I got a few things right.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Think of it again, tp, if you were the seer and dreamt of a lover on N1, would you make a hint of any kind that you have a lover?

No. I didn't say "hint". I said "CODED HINT".

Huge difference.

A code is something that will not be found but can be pointed to later in order to establish truth. In this game the Seer would be smart to leave codes rather than hints. The point is to be able to prove your identity without calling any attention to yourself beforehand.

You, however, did the opposite, and left hints but not the necessary code.

[Anguirel]

That doesn't make any sense Nogrod. But it sounds a bit like the whinnying I heard the night our horses were shredded. They were a courageous breed, though, and I reckon you're scareder

[Aganzir]

Okay.

I actually am Beren. I was writing an angry post in response to Nog's revelation where I would have expressed my regret about not having said I was Lúthien, and I realised it wasn't too late and I could actually still try it.

If Nog was the real seer, he would have said: "Heh I happen to know you're not her, can you trust me now?"
Instead he totally ignored my comment (yes it would've been hard to come up with an acceptable explanation).

I think the phantom can vote safely.

So yeah gender-bending indeed. We had a cross-dressing night in the last large Downer gathering I attended.

[Nogrod]

Wilwa as well?

Oh my.


Heh, it seems I have a chance to not go somewhere a lot of people crave to go?


Okay. If someone wishes for two more dreams, then change this voting pattern.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Ha!
No I'm not. I'm Lúthien.

This is the bestest thing ever.