Mandos Thread: DEAD ONLY! - WW LXXXVI

[Nogrod]

Okay. I finally got to read this thread as well. And I can see where the wind blows.

*headdesk*

Anyway, we have to pull our act together now.

You Shasta may say and think what you say and think about that call for unity. But I do hope you listen and think closely now for a moment.


I was playing bad on D2, I admit and do apologise again for it (too tired, too involved, too many glasses of wine...). That being as it is, we should really concentrate. The village has basically lost the lovers who could bring some real info to the game - and they have lost their seer a few Days too early.

That means, I really think my place is here, I just would have wished to enter here a bit later. Now we have to hope the ranger manages to keep her/himself alive for a while before visiting us - who should have then a solid act going on here.

I mean this game is going to be played in here in the end and we have a chance of pulling this together now before the wolves and cobblers enter this domain.


Mänwe is an ordinary innocent. I dreamt that toNight.

It's a no brainer to say you Shasta are Lúthien.

I am the seer who knows that Agan is Beren and the phantom is cobbler.


I'm very happy to join the vote toNight for one of us:

++ Nogrod

I guess that does it as there are two votes for me now.


And I can tell you what Rikae will tell us as a result. She will say I'm an innocent.

Now that will rule out the possibility for you I'm a wolf. Ditto.


You still have a few options to speculate upon for sure.

Let's see...

I am the ranger?
I would have cursed differently if I was.

I am an ordinary innocent?
Maybe, but this isn't exactly a game where ordos should pull that kind of fake-seer -stunts... or to get that agitated if they were just going to get into this interesting new thread. Not to talk of keeping up the deceit on this thread.


So you have basically two options: I'm either a cobbler or the seer as I say I am, and am.

I do wish you to contemplate the following for a moment before making your judgement.

I know I can't show you any proof of me being the seer other than what I have said already. And yes, I know a cobbler willing to pull a stunt could have done something along the lines I did - although it would have required quite a bold act and a lot of luck to hit it right with Agan on D1 (remember that to a cobbler her role would have been a shot in the dark). There was no way a cobbler could have guessed that - and the possibility of that being revealed would have meant instant doom for him. So a bit risky, even in this kind of a game.

And really, because I knew her to be Beren there was no way I would have said that aloud. I already complained to Rikae, that that N1 dream was the worst ever. I needed to put Agan up on as the only innocent on D1 in case there were competing seer-revelations later in the game, so I had to have something to show if it came to that on D6 or something.

And anyway, would a cobbler have gotten that involved and / or personally annoyed? Like the ordinary innocent, I think a cobbler would have actually loved to get in here - especially if there was a hope some people would have thought him the seer! That would have been perfect for a cobbler! So, no reason to sound bitter or be angry.

Which brings me to the last fact I think you should consider.

I really got agitated in the end of D2 seeing the general vote coming towards me as I just didn't understand where it came from (thinking of it now I can see my failing to pick up Agan's bluff could be one, but I do still think there were other forces behind that lynch of mine). As a seer that was the worst possible thing to happen. So I saw the village losing their seer way too early (combined with the fact that the wolves had picked you lovers already) and was frustrated.

I hope you Shasta can see in this light why I was so ****ed off when I met your sarcastic attitude of me being a baddie for certain in here then? After reading both threads now I can see where your distrust arose and I think we both were stupid not willing to listen to each other.

And I was a moron. But let's not discuss that anymore. I'm pretty ashamed of myself enough already.

I just hope you can see now what was the reason behind my flaming annoyance and agitation back there.

We should not let these hot feelings - already calmed on my side I must add - to destroy the game for the village.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Agan's bluff occured in #354. Phantom references it exclusively in #356 (as in, the entire post is about it). Your post #357 is one I'm willing to believe you made soon after, and I'm even willing to buy that you didn't go back and read Agan's and Phantom's posts. What I'm not buying is that you also ignored Fea's #358, Ang's #362, Wilwa's #363, and even if you never went back and read those after having posted your #364, you never acknowledged Phantom's point in #365 about a coded Agan-hint, and you continued to ignore continued references to the trap in Agan's #366, Mith's #367, Wilwa's veiled reference in #368 ("it's pretty clear he's not the Seer"), Ang's #371... even though you posted after that at #374, in response to Phantom's post (the reason I say you never acknowledged the point is that you didn't respond to the difference between 'hint' and 'code' - which Phantom himself mentions in #376.) Agan makes known that she's bluffing in #378, and you didn't even acknowledge that. Loslote makes yet another reference to it in #388 and Agan specifically re-mentions it in #394.

I find it extremely hard to believe you failed to see all of this.

And added to that, you claim to have dreamt of Agan. I'm sure you can see that you said nothing about her being a Lover before her reveal (which is good), but you can also see that does nothing to prove that you're the seer. The fact that you placed Agan high on your list doesn't mean much - it could easily be argued that you, as a cobbler, were putting up people you found innocent as suggestions for wolf-kills - "Maybe if enough people find person X innocent, the wolves will go after them!" It certainly doesn't add to your credibility as much as you seem to think it does. I really am sorry - I was also probably over-harsh, dying early with a role tends to make me mad... but then again, you do tend to bash me after I'm dead. "Oh, Shasta played stupidly, it's his own fault he's dead," et cetera, things you'd probably never say if I was alive to refute them. You really did hurt my feelings, quite a lot - and this isn't the first game you've done so, either.

TL;DR - I'm sorry, but I still can't believe you're the Seer.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

--Nogrod
++Manwe

At this point, given that Nogrod has voted himself, I'm pretty confident that he will, indeed, show up as innocent - which would mean cobbler or Seer (I'm obviously leaning heavily toward the former). Manwe, your role is completely unknown, and Fea has a point - would you mind just confirming for us that you're not a wolf?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

--Nogrod
++Manwe

At this point, given that Nogrod has voted himself, I'm pretty confident that he will, indeed, show up as innocent - which would mean cobbler or Seer (I'm obviously leaning heavily toward the former). Manwe, your role is completely unknown, and Fea has a point - would you mind just confirming for us that you're not a wolf?

Mänwe is an ordinary innocent. I told you. And he is.

Well Shasta, it's one step forwards you see I'm not a wolf.

Let's make the next step then?

Okay, got your info about your status with this thread. Too late for me to dive into the thread now to make any more specifics.

I hope I could answer your points from the post before this. But I can't. I totally missed that. I do remember seen some of the points you mentioned and recall thinking that the people are talking about something I don't understand what they are doing and it must be something not that important...

Had it not been 5am I might have seen that.

Anyway, I spent most of the time that last hour writing stupid jeremiads and hate it now. So I really just eyed them as I was more interested in the way the voting was going. Which I think you might understand.


I'm very sorry and apologise once again if I have hurt you. That was and is not my intenton. You know, it's not personal but game-related. But like you say: "dying early with a role tends to make me mad..." - and I think we both had reason to be mad about it, not only personally, but also because of the village.

I was more or less paranoid there in the end of D2 and you scorning me wasn't exactly helping...

I can prove it to you I'm the seer only when the game is over - and I do hope you understand my reactions to that lynch then (like you say you go mad when killed early with an important role).

Just think one more time: would I have acted like that if I was just a cobbler?

That would mean I would have been only maliciously bashing you with no reason, just for the fun of it? Surely you can't believe that?

I had a reason to be mad as I was the seer lynched and you were not believing it. Think about it fex. changing our roles for a moment. How would you have reacted if the roles were the other way around?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Just think one more time: would I have acted like that if I was just a cobbler?

That would mean I would have been only maliciously bashing you with no reason, just for the fun of it? Surely you can't believe that?

Just thinking of it once more... wouldn't a cobbler me have acted differently?

What would a cobbler win by fighting a more or less known innocent?

I can answer that: nothing.

So ask yourself one more time: was I on top of my act and maliciously weaving a well thought out plot that included being agitated and annoyed with you, or whether the more believable explanation is that I was both frustrated as being the lynched seer too early in the game more or less making my role redundant and tired & off enough to be that cranky?

Which one?

Okay. All the best to you in the thread toMorrow. I'll keep my thumbs up for the village, even if the beginning has been horrible.

[Mänwe]

Quick comment- how was Fea able to create that tally of our posts within this thread?

[Rikae]

Nog, what do you mean by:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I was more or less paranoid there in the end of D2 and you scorning me wasn't exactly helping...

don't tell me, after all that song and dance, you were reading the dead thread yourself?

And Mänwe, if you click on the post count number to the right on the Mirth page, you'll get that list.

[Rikae]

My dear departed gentlemen and/or ladies, we now may count Feanor of the Peredhil as a member of our exclusive little club. Now she can see exactly who spazzed and in what ways...

Mänwe is not a wolf, whatever else he may be.

Shasta, you are alive from this point on and may no longer read post or post in this thread. Farewell, until we meet again...

The living:

Aganzir
Shasta
Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
Wilwa
Legate
Lommy
Nessa
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel

The dead:

Macalaure
Rikae
Mänwe
Nogrod
Blind Guardian
Fea

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Hello, dolls.

---

Written immediately following Deadline:

Mmkay, so at the time of Noggles's death, the Dead Thread post count is,

Shasta: 32
Manwe: 12
Rikae: 9
Mac: 1

At this point, the 'facts' that the village has are these:

Manwe was killed by the village and we do not know his role.

Shasta was killed by the wolves, and we can assume that he is therefore not a wolf.

Aganzir revealed as the Lover of Shasta. Since we will know very soon if she lied, this revelation was taken as FACT, because it would not help a wolf to make that bluff, it would not help a cobbler to make that bluff, and an ordo would not make that bluff.

Nog revealed as Seer and claimed to dream of Agan-Beren and Phantom-Cobbler.

Agan used her gender-bending feminine wiles to make Nog look exceptionally bad.

Therefore:

IF Agan is Not-Evil, which seems to be a foregone conclusion, THEN the village's decrying of Nog is accurate and we have killed either a cobbler or a wolf.

If Nog is a wolf, then it can be assumed that he was working under the auspices of the Pack, which currently contains either two or three members, one being Nog. If two, the third was Manwe and is already dead. If three, the others are unknown and are alive.

If Manwe was a wolf and Nog was a wolf, the two may now communicate via PM.

If Nog is a cobbler, he was working more or less alone (as in: he was unable to coordinate plans privately with others).

If Nog was working with a Pack, there would need to be a motive, such as to cast doubt on another player, or to cast good light on another player.

Because Dead Wolves may not communicate with Live Wolves, it is of no immediate benefit for a wolf to simply die.

There is a caveat to this: regardless of number of living wolves (either one left or two left), if it was judged to be of sufficient benefit to the remaining pack member/s for a Nog-wolf to die, then we can look at it thusly: the only person whose reputation is polished to a streak free shine from Nog's performance is the phantom.

However, I provide my opinion:

Nog is a cobbler, working to destabilize the village. He is not a wolf, and his behavior says nothing at all about the phantom's alignment.

--

As of 11:00pm EST toDay, this is the Dead Thread count.

Shasta: 44
Manwe: 14
Rikae: 13
Nog: 11
Mac: 2

[Macalaure]

A rather uneventful Day came to an end in the timeless world of the dead. Anticipating this, the living decided to spice things up a little and add a whole bunch to the mix. I'm sure you will have plenty of things to talk about now.

The living:

Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
wilwarin538
Legate
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel


The dead:

Rikae (mod)
Macalaure (co-mod)
Mänwe (not a wolf)
Nogrod
Blind Guardian
Feanor of the Peredhil
Aganzir (Beren)
Shastanis Althreduin (Lúthien)
Thinlómien
Nessa Telrunya


It is now Night 4. You may choose which one of you shall be revealed as wolf or not. If your role allows you to do something else at Night, too... do so.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

don't tell me, after all that song and dance, you were reading the dead thread yourself?

Heh... With Shasta scorning me I referred of course to our unnecessary and stupid bickering here then after my lynch. Actually I only read this thread through yesterDay (like I said on my post #75) as it was so late back then when I died.


Welcome to Mandos Fea.

Reading your first posts seem to indicate I really have some work to do to make things right...


And a quick look at the game thread makes me wish to hit my head to the desk. If people are going to think the phantom is a trustworthy ordo because of my failings I'm really going to lock myself into dark closet for the rest of my life...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Poor dear. I'll nuzzle you, but I probably won't trust you.

Just know that I love you tons even if I think you're full of fruit with a crumbly sweet topping.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Ang

Boro certainly seems to spend a lot of time watching the Tudors, for example. I mean, I like a ripped bodice myself, but...this doesn't necessarily mean guilt, I suppose, just that the great complexity of this game brings on a certain sense of detachment. Fea, too, was generally not as vocal as you might've expected.

1) It is a tendency of Bordo to thoroughly not care. I think it speaks to his innocence that he'd rather watch Ms. Boleyn bust out of her corset than try to invent facts he doesn't have. If you're evil, inventing is fun. Manipulation is lovely. If you're an ordo and don't know anything, the best you can do is show up once in a while and say something, and then go back to Henry and his tawdry affairs.

2) Oh come now, Ang, dear, I warned everyone in advance I was going to be fairly distant. I was busy, and now I appear to be sick. I thought I was doing a lovely job given the circumstances. Clearly the wolves agreed.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Okay, so here's the deal. I feel pretty icky today (I was hoping my feeling blah the past few days wouldn't legitimately turn into a sick version of me, but how much I'm coughing says no such luck) so I'm going to lay out how I think we should function so that I can run off and rest.

Nog, if you're actually the seer, your dream options are basically: me. We know Manwe isn't a wolf. We know Shasta and Agan's roles. You obviously know your own role. And you can't dream of the living. So that pretty much covers your theoretical seerly activities.

According to the Live Thread, they want to know Nog's role for certain (or as certain as it can get). I can understand that rationale. It makes the most sense right now to vote to learn Nog's alignment since we already know basically everyone else's (I'm an ordo). When Glorfy comes to visit, xe'll then have that piece of information to go back with.

As far as who should get the double vote, I lean toward giving it to one of our Lovers, just because we know their allegiance, so even if they go astray, we know it isn't because they're trying to mess with us. Shasta died too soon for us to really see him in action, but Agan has shown herself to be very rational, careful, and thoughtful. I submit that we should give her the double vote again. If that's allowed. I can't remember if that's allowed, and all I want to do is go find tea and pout that I don't feel good.

So somebody let me know if doubling Agan's vote again is okay?

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Fea

So somebody let me know if doubling Agan's vote again is okay?

It's perfectly fine.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Nog, if you're actually the seer, your dream options are basically: me. We know Manwe isn't a wolf. We know Shasta and Agan's roles. You obviously know your own role. And you can't dream of the living. So that pretty much covers your theoretical seerly activities.

I need to remind you, we also know that Mänwe is an ordinary innocent. I dreamt that last Night and told about it. That is an exact role and it's fool-proof. I understand it that you're probably not willing to trust me yet. But I'll do my best to make you look at my role again. Hopefully when enough people see that what I say of their role is true you start to reconsider.

I promise 100% accuracy on my dreams. I will not err with them like a cobbler eventually would.

And yes, you're next.

Oops... unless the lynched one is more interesting... Oh, I have to get the hang of this. I think I can only dream during the Nights back there so the better focus to my dreams would be the lynched as we already know you're not a wolf.

Let's see if there will arise an occasion where that would call for turning that priority the otherway around.

According to the Live Thread, they want to know Nog's role for certain (or as certain as it can get). I can understand that rationale. It makes the most sense right now to vote to learn Nog's alignment since we already know basically everyone else's (I'm an ordo). When Glorfy comes to visit, xe'll then have that piece of information to go back with.

I suggested we voted for me yesterDay in here to find out my alignment - and actually voted myself. But Shasta turned his mind and retracted his vote from me into Mänwe and it was him we got (=not a wolf - while I already had the exact info of him being an ordo as well). He could have taken that info with him to the living thread but he decided not to. What a waste.

You should ask him when he comes back what on earth he was thinking... I mean if there was a chance he could be a cobbler as well while being a lover, then I'd bet my money on that.

As far as who should get the double vote, I lean toward giving it to one of our Lovers, just because we know their allegiance, so even if they go astray, we know it isn't because they're trying to mess with us. Shasta died too soon for us to really see him in action, but Agan has shown herself to be very rational, careful, and thoughtful. I submit that we should give her the double vote again.

I do agree with your premises... and with the conclusions as well.

I'm all for Agan getting the extra-vote.

++ Agan

for the extra-vote.


Sorry about being thus inactive toDay but there is a revolution unraveling in front of one's eyes where 80 million people turn the wheel of history... No offence to the most remarkable game we have on our hands, but that revolution is a tad more intreresting thing as it is changing this world as we know it in a big way (if all the Arab dictatorial regimes tumble down it is bigger than the collapsing of Communism 20 years ago), but I'll be back a bit later with hopefully some general ideas about the situation.


EDIT: Corrected a major fumble in logic: I think I only get to dream during the Nights and thus the lynchees are the obvios choices...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

somebody were to post:

I am neither here, nor reading.

?

[Mänwe]

++Aganzir

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Do what Mith said! Notice that I post! Assume it means I care! Odds and evens is a way better plan than "second to last, times two, minus x to the third power"! Odds and evens!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Hey, you! Live people! Somebody remember Nog.

You wanted to find out Nog's role. If you want us to do that toNight, but you also want us to find out who you lynch toDay, then you have to give us really solid instructions, or Noggles will slip through the cracks.

Somebody remember Nog! SOMEBODY. Pwease?

i like instructions.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by phantom

Another thing about our Dead-plan... The dead vote to do checks at Night, so, I assume that they'll begin with whichever person we lynch today? If so, that means they won't check Nog, right?

Is that okay, since we are guessing Cobbler?

YOU READ MY MIND!

I KNEW I ALWAYS LOVED YOU!

[Nogrod]

Rikae: A question concerning the rules.

When Shasta goes back toMorrow is he "only" alive or is he also in here aka. does he have a right to check this dead-thread as well during D3?

It is once again past midnight here and for everyone's sanity I'm not going to hang in here making analyses the whole Night, but if Shasta can check in here on D3 I could actually try to help us looking at the thread tomorrow.



If the answer is negative - as I'm afraid it is - then here's a little for you Shasta.

I say Boro is not a goodie.

I'm afraid some of the old-timer non-suspects Fea, Mith, Ang, Wilwa are wolves. I'd need to check that for any more specified thoughts though. And that will not be tonight as I'm going to sleep now.

phantom is a cobbler as I said. That's knowledge. And I think you already saw that yourself from here.

Lommy, Greenie, Legate... hmm.. It's quite usual I'm this undecided with them. But let's say I'd be surprised if they were all goodies.



Let's see whom we get here toMorrow?


EDIT x'd with Shasta X 2

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Rikae: A question concerning the rules.

When Shasta goes back toMorrow is he "only" alive or is he also in here aka. does he have a right to check this dead-thread as well during D3?

It is once again past midnight here and for everyone's sanity I'm not going to hang in here making analyses the whole Night, but if Shasta can check in here on D3 I could actually try to help us looking at the thread tomorrow.



If the answer is negative - as I'm afraid it is - then here's a little for you Shasta.

I say Boro is not a goodie.

I'm afraid some of the old-timer non-suspects Fea, Mith, Ang, Wilwa are wolves. I'd need to check that for any more specified thoughts though. And that will not be tonight as I'm going to sleep now.

phantom is a cobbler as I said. That's knowledge. And I think you already saw that yourself from here.

Lommy, Greenie, Legate... hmm.. It's quite usual I'm this undecided with them. But let's say I'd be surprised if they were all goodies.



Let's see whom we get here toMorrow?


EDIT x'd with Shasta X 2

I'm allowed to check the results of the Night's vote, but nothing after that, until I'm dead again.

[Mänwe]

I am of course, an innocent. Will be back to comment later.

++Mänwe