A Measure of Success

[Mithalwen]

By player you mean any random person who happened to be passing or people whose opinion have established validity? I'd rather have Pio. Juries are too unpredictacble and can't think of anything worse than having something you have sweated kittens over shang-haied by a self appointed committee of people who won't do anything but criticise. At least a judge may be consistent....

[Mithadan]

At least a judge may be consistent....

What court do you practice in?

[Mithalwen]

I did say may and I don't practise anywhere myself, but in my youth trailed at times after my pa who was a Crown Prosecutor ..he tended to know what to expect from the Magistrates good or bad.. I think there were a few "heartsinks". But that is what 25 years in a rural backwater does for you. More predictable than juries - we can't cherry pick them here and you tend to get numpties who haven't the nous to get excused. Other than that my legal experience consists of working for licensing lawyers for a while and spending most of my time seeing if we could tip our boss into physical or mental collapse first.

Now if there is anyone left who I haven't annoyed or offended, please form an orderly queue and I'll get back to you...

[Firefoot]

I think the hope is that the RPG fora would be able to start self-regulating itself more, like Werewolf does. I think that some sort of discussion forum would be really helpful for this (Durelin - I didn't understand that that's what you were getting at ). In this case, I think it would be helpful to have entire forum/subforum rather than just one large thread like werewolf, since it would get confusing if people were trying to talk about more than one idea at once.

[Amanaduial the archer]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

What court do you practice in?

Oh, Mithadan. You, who have practiced for so many years, fill me with hope in my chosen profession


Anyway, good evening, chaps and chapesses. Long time no see. Durelin, excellent idea to revive this thread, as far as I'm concerned, the Downs RPGing has long been calling for a bit of a change since the Era of the Werewolf!

While stoically avoiding my rash and untempered 14 year old self on the first few pages (I really didn't want to run into her, she can be so...touchy - however much I might agree with her on some points...), I've been interested to read the more recent parts of this thread. Interesting that it was nearly a decade since the games changed, and lord knows I spent enough time around the RPGs in my misspent youth to perhaps contribute something as it all changes, as Bethberry so kindly directed me to this thread. And it's a pleasure to see so many familiar faces - Durelin, Mithalwen, Anguirel, Pio, Firefoot and of course, Mithadan, along with all the other old hands - striving to do the same

Now, obviously I haven't been very evident around the Downs for some time now; I haven't participated in a game, beyond occasional pseudonimical appearances in the Inns, for about four years. But that isn't necessarily for lack of trying: I never made any secret of the fact that I wasn't always a huge fan of the over perpetuation of rules after the 'split' in the game system and beyond, but there is no doubt, as Mithadan says, that rules are unfortunately absolutely necessary in order to run a system like this effectively. Certainly it's worked to the extent that the Downs has produced some of the best openly participatory character-based writing as far as I've seen on the internet, and my my, in the aforementioned misspent youth I certainly saw a fair bit. However, as has been remarked upon, things appear to have...stagnated, a bit. Perhaps, if I may offer my opinion, because RPGing became harder to get into: certainly I know that when I came back and attempted to piece myself into one of the Inns, I found it very difficult when there was so much rather complex backstory, so many existing characters which existed for ten pages or more back. To take Bethberry's point:

Ideally, inns should be more improvisational and less structured in order to accommodate newcomers. It should be possible to drop in and run with an idea or easily pick up a theme already in progress; there should be "hooks" or things that a newcomer can pick up on in recent posts. If something is so complex that it requires extensive back reading, then that something defeats the purpose of providing an informal interactive role playing situation: the inn is already too complex for newcomers.

EXACTLY. I apologise for the caps, but I could not agree more. It's not to say the writing and interaction involved isn't of an excellent quality: the Inn in question was fantastically well written, and the Inn-person was really very welcoming. However, the atmosphere itself wasn't always - through no fault of any individual, I would stress that, not at all! - but it felt closed - and this not exactly from a newcomer, but from a returning 'old-timer' who's participated in....actually, I'm not sure how many games, probably around the 15-20 mark. The rules perhaps have got a bit much. I like improvisation, and I like freedom, and that's what was always so wonderful about being about to write so wonderfully here. Bios on the Inns I disagree with entirely.

Thusly. In the interests of structure, to address Form's questions:

1. Do you think the Downs should move to having 2 forums? (If no, how many?)

Er.... Excellent difference between the 'freestyle' forum and the Shire-Rohan-Gondor structure, is the chance to have a separate discussion thread, makes interaction and a feeling of unity and community on the games so much better. However, in address whether to, basically, abolish the Shire-Rohan-Gondor system...Well. I remember my pride when I was listed as a 'Gondorian': it's a badge of honour to get to Rohan and to even get beyond. Also, it has the same benefits as a 'setting' system in schools: it gives you an indication of who you're playing with, and ensures a comparable quality across the board, preventing frustration and hopefully ensuring maximum output for the players involved.
However, there is a very serious problem, the same, indeed, of that of 'setting': it becomes cliquey, and it makes people feel done-down and part of a hierarchy. Now, there ain't nothin' wrong with a good hierarchy every so often (so speaks the Brit, I suppose), but I don't think it's helpful for new players to come to RPGing and be told that, basically, they aren't good enough to play here, or in this context, or with these players. And please, before anyone jumps on me, this isn't a criticism, I'm not at all saying that that is actually what is being said by anyone in the Downs RPG world - but it's a matter of perception, and that is important if an RPG renaissance is to come about.

So I can really see it either way: one part of me would strongly advocate the removal of the Shire-Rohan-Gondor system, but then, I remember the freestyle forum, and while there is no chance that we would ever return to that chaos, some kind of structure can perhaps be helpful. Perhaps a change of the rules, and a degree of greater flexibility between the forums, then? For example, the removal of the condition that one has to run a game before one can progress to Gondor? And, please, the removal of the isolation of Gondor - it isn't helpful to see that forum beyond and above all else, for new players or for those eligible to play there, as it becomes a ghost town. Hmm.

2. Should game proposals be run by the Mods first? (If yes, to what extent?)

Ah. Now. For a while I functioned as a sort of 'demi-mod' in the Shire, with Pio and Child, helping with approving games and getting new games up to scratch. And boy, were there some duff proposals. I mean, really. They would never have got off the ground without the aid of helpful moderators. So I would say yes, game proposals should be helped along by moderators - but perhaps with less heavy handedness than currently perhaps (maybe, possibly, I'm speculating, I am not attacking) currently exists. A system of advice and help, rather than of 'running' or control? Of course, that becomes a very, very tricky balance to officiate, but...


3. Should we have (a)sub-forum(s) for brainstorming/discussion?

Maybe that would facilitate greater openness, if there was a feeling that anyone could jump in and propose a question or an idea to the community as a whole. Obviously one can always message a moderator or an experienced gamer, but it actually might be a really good idea to make this a more open-say policy?

4. Should the Inns continue in the future in their current form?

I think here I really can't do better than to quote Durelin directly:

Well there's no reason to get rid of them, but we need new inns/the inns to change to be more welcoming to newcomers. They (or it) need(s) to be less plot-oriented.

Bang on, my love, bang on.

5. Should games be deleted/moved/closed after inactivity? After how much inactivity?

Yes. After loss of interest, attempts at resuscitation, and, perhaps as an idea, an offering of the game to other prospective players to see whether anyone else is willing to guide the ship?


Just my few cents anyway, I hope they aren't too unwelcome after so long an absence.

- Amanaduial


p.s. Lord, nearly a decade since I came to the Downs. Gracious.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

By player you mean any random person who happened to be passing or people whose opinion have established validity? I'd rather have Pio. Juries are too unpredictacble and can't think of anything worse than having something you have sweated kittens over shang-haied by a self appointed committee of people who won't do anything but criticise. At least a judge may be consistent....

Perhaps the court analogy is more apt than I thought: the jury may render a conviction, but only the judge may pass sentence.

...in this case, the analogy being that the unwashed masses may proclaim your game a dud, but if the Mod doesn't squash it, you're still completely entitled to play it out.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Perhaps the court analogy is more apt than I thought: the jury may render a conviction, but only the judge may pass sentence.

...in this case, the analogy being that the unwashed masses may proclaim your game a dud, but if the Mod doesn't squash it, you're still completely entitled to play it out.

But a proposer isn't actually on trial are they they are trying to do something creative and I think it is rather crueller to have a jury shooting something down in flames in public than have a Forum mod suggein private that a bit more thought or work is necessary. Going for some sort of committee I think could end up with too many chiefs and not enough indians.... like this old tale

I was once in charge of a rowing team and I employed many managers to assess and streamline the strategy.

On our first race we lost by a mile.

On the debrief it was noted that the other team had eight rowers and one cox, where we had one rower and eight coxes.

I then set up a steering committee, sub-steering committee, oversight committee and cost analysis committee.

After one year and thousands of pounds it was concluded that we did not have enough rowers.

However the new managers brought in meant there was no longer any space for rowers and we lost the next race by two miles.

The rower was fired for poor performance, the management team was rewarded for the expert deductions and were paid a bonus from the sale of the oars and boat.

There seems to more interest in organising than doing ...

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

But a proposer isn't actually on trial are they they are trying to do something creative and I think it is rather crueller to have a jury shooting something down in flames in public than have a Forum mod suggein private that a bit more thought or work is necessary. Going for some sort of committee I think could end up with too many chiefs and not enough indians.... like this old tale

Well, the option is always there for a potential game mod to bounce ideas back and forth with the Mod--or with anyone else, for that matter. Removing the requirement that game owners run ideas by the Mod doesn't mean that the Mod's inbox will be closed to people. And, speaking for myself anyway, it's always exciting to get a PM on the Downs (so rare these days...), and to be asked advice about something.

Perhaps the analogy of the court is a bad one, though, if the image of the jury is one that you're shying away from. The idea of a forum to bounce ideas around on was not (if I may say so, not having suggested it originally) intended to be one of judgment and picking things apart, but one of brainstorming and picking people's brains.

It's possible I have a somewhat rosy view of what a brainstorming forum could be, but I'd like to think (on the strength of the sort of discussion that goes on in the Scarburg Planning Thread) that the RPers on the Downs could be constructive and polite in such an environment.

[Mithalwen]

Maybe but I look at the Scarburg Meadhall discussion thread and feel that it is completely unapproachable and too much for an outsider to get a handle on. All this bouncing around ideas and discussing what you are going to do just takes energy away from actually doing anything, Reminds me too much interminable work meetings where you end up playing that form of bingo that naming would get me modded. I used to have a sign on my desk that said that meetings were the management sanctioned alternative to work. I can't think of anything much more likely to ensure I never RPGed again. Of course that might be a good thing.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Maybe but I look at the Scarburg Meadhall discussion thread and feel that it is completely unapproachable and too much for an outsider to get a handle on. All this bouncing around ideas and discussing what you are going to do just takes energy away from actually doing anything, Reminds me too much interminable work meetings where you end up playing that form of bingo that naming would get me modded. I used to have a sign on my desk that said that meetings were the management sanctioned alternative to work. I can't think of anything much more likely to ensure I never RPGed again. Of course that might be a good thing.

I aver that that would not be a good thing. However, I hope it's not looking like someone would *have* to participate in a brainstorming sub-forum, if we had one. There would be nothing stopping you from working up a proposal on your own (as you could now), using a publicly available proposal form (as you could now--I, at least, see no reason to get rid of a useful Sticky, if emended to make it clear that you didn't have to submit it to a Mod for approval). You could still PM it to a Mod (you just wouldn't have to), and you'd still have to find players, either by audition or invitation (which is the case now).

That being said... I can see how there might be a danger of getting a band of people hanging out in the brainstorming room who were always there but never in a game... but I don't think that's a particularly great concern. For one thing, these things tend to police themselves--most people don't comment on the WW planning threads unless they are playing or normally play. Likewise, if I don't intend to play my character "today", I assiduously avoid the Meadhall planning threads (though that may just be me...)

What's more, I think we've got a better chance of sucking people in if we have a sort of "halfway" zone between being deeply ensconced in a game and not involved at all. To rely on personal anecdote again, I tend to get sucked into games two ways: 1. by direct invitation (never happened, the last couple years) or 2. by hanging around too long in a "gaming" atmosphere... and on the Downs the only place I've found for that kind of casual contact has been the Meadhall planning threads, which I faithfully read, but rarely engage out of a fear that I'll look bad for planning all the time and never playing. If we had a brainstorming forum, well... I'd be like I am on this thread: engaging completely with a RP environment and finding myself sucked without knowing it back into a game.

Also, let's just ignore the fact that I've been following this thread all day with more interest and excitement than any of the WW games I've played in the last few years. Anyone with game plans for the "new world order," assuming these discussions come to fruition, bear in mind that I will be ripe for the plucking.

Failing that, I always have that RP proposal I showed Boro last year.