A Measure of Success

[Mithalwen]

I don't want to be perpetually negative - really I don't, but if you scrap character bios completely you make it very hard for new people to get started since not only do they have to pick up what is going on if anything (it took me hours upon hours to get a definitive "Story so far" for the cooks disappearance in the Golden Perch when I was trying to pick up that thread. If you don't give people an easy handle on at least what people look like you make if very hard for both new people to get started and indeed existing people to welcome them.

A full life history might be unnecessary, but I do think at least a bit of a description of what a character looks like would make it easier.

In an ideal world good sense and good manners would be enough but they can be commodities in short supply and sometimes rule have been imposed for good reasons and do infact make life simpler rather than the reverse, ie requiring all ciitzens to drive on the left (or the right if you really must ) is hardly state oppression and a restriction of individuality.

[Mithadan]

Mithalwen (can't call you Mith, too confusing), I'm not necessarily saying no bios or anything yet. These are all issues to be decided. I would suppose that game proposals would be discussed in one thread and bios would be discussed in the RPG discussion thread.

[Mithalwen]

Indeed, I am aware that I don't have first dibs on the abbreviation but people will use it. And if I had realised how much time I was going to spend here I might have been more original.

I just meant that when rules are looked at it should be borne in mind what function they serve and if you eliminate them how is the function going to be fulfilled. It may be that a simple character bio is easier than saying "your first post must describe your character" and then somehow indexing that first post for the reference of othet players. I do know that some characters develop as they are played but in the inns in particular it is helpful to have something to go on.. .and to make sure the characters are in the right century.

[Bêthberry]

I don't want to hog the conversation here and would like to see others comment on Mithadan's request and Formy's proposal, but I also would like to address Mithalwen's concerns about character bios and the Inns (Note: not games, just inns) because I think her insecurity about posting demonstrates something important and I would hope we can address such issues so players don't have to feel so insecure about joining in.

It shouldn't matter if someone gets someone's eye colour wrong in an Inn. (After all, even Tolkien wasn't consistent on some of his.) It shouldn't matter that something a week ago is vitally relevant to a new entry--if that element is so vital, it should be in play.

Ideally, inns should be more improvisational and less structured in order to accommodate newcomers. It should be possible to drop in and run with an idea or easily pick up a theme already in progress; there should be "hooks" or things that a newcomer can pick up on in recent posts. If something is so complex that it requires extensive back reading, then that something defeats the purpose of providing an informal interactive role playing situation: the inn is already too complex for newcomers.

Character bios even for games can often become similar to police rap sheets: detailing physical characteristics enough that a felon can be apprehended, but really not saying much about how the character will interact. In an inn, it should be the action in play that garners the attention and not necessarily or particularly an all-encompassing view of a character. When we read fiction, we don't get all the details at once up front, but must read selectively to gather what is needed to follow the play. That, ideally, is how an informal inn can operate.

If a player wants to, he or she can write a bio for his character as a helpful reminder, but to ask players to post bios for an Inn sort of defeats the purpose of the improvisational play. It already makes the role playing into something formal, rather than an exploration. And it detracts from what is supposed to be the main or important writing: the actual thread. When gamers become so fixated on external documents, they lose track of how to write really interactive narrative. And that's what an inn is supposed to do: help players learn how to develop a game and action by actually practicing in a small on-going one.

This of course is just my opinion. But I would hope that the rules--necessary rules, I agree with Mithadan--don't sound so much like a reflection of what has stimied games in the past that they continue to create insecurity for newcomers. Someone on this thread referred to The Shire as a place where gamers are babysat. If that condition of being babysat (assuming that statement is valid) continues, then I would argue it will defeat attempts to help gamers become, as Firefoot said, self-regulating and more independent. At the very least, I would hope that at least one Inn would function without requiring extraneous documents like character bios.

And I would hope that in addition to the forms now used for structuring games there would also be some direction about how to develop the more interactive role playing (First, to avoid the free-fall of the Troubles. And second to avoid the appearance that only that structure is acceptable.)

Okay, I'm outta here.

EDIT: cross posted with pio and Mark.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

You all are trying to convince me that: (1) we don't need as many rules; and (2) that you can not only create your own games without us looking over your shoulder and that your colleagues will demonstrate commitment, effort and a degree of skill with minimal mod involvement.

I will give you enough rope. You will either hang yourselves or make us proud. But there will be rules. What those rules will be is open to discussion. I have my own ideas, but I'm willing to be convinced.

I understand, you're an admin, you're in charge. You get to decide if we live up to your *standards.* But just remember...you do need members to have a forum.

[mark12_30]

Whoa, easy. Deep breath, all.

I know what a power struggle looks like. I don't see a power struggle here. Consider this statement:

It strikes me that retaining "veto" power would be more potentially embarrassing and annoying to a game facilitator/owner than some sort of simplified proposal process.

...that is not the statement of a man obsessed with power; that is a statement from a man who doesn't like to see people hurt. That is consistent with the man I know. I have seen him battling to resolve conflicts between players several times.

We are in negotiation. Let's maintain an open attitude, and an honest effort to invigorate something we all value.

Breathe in, breathe out...

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I don't want to hog the conversation here and would like to see others comment on Mithadan's request and Formy's proposal, but I also would like to address Mithalwen's concerns about character bios and the Inns (Note: not games, just inns) because I think her insecurity about posting demonstrates something important and I would hope we can address such issues so players don't have to feel so insecure about joining in.

It shouldn't matter if someone gets someone's eye colour wrong in an Inn. (After all, even Tolkien wasn't consistent on some of his.) It shouldn't matter that something a week ago is vitally relevant to a new entry--if that element is so vital, it should be in play.

Ideally, inns should be more improvisational and less structured in order to accommodate newcomers. It should be possible to drop in and run with an idea or easily pick up a theme already in progress; there should be "hooks" or things that a newcomer can pick up on in recent posts. If something is so complex that it requires extensive back reading, then that something defeats the purpose of providing an informal interactive role playing situation: the inn is already too complex for newcomers.

Character bios even for games can often become similar to police rap sheets: detailing physical characteristics enough that a felon can be apprehended, but really not saying much about how the character will interact. In an inn, it should be the action in play that garners the attention and not necessarily or particularly an all-encompassing view of a character. When we read fiction, we don't get all the details at once up front, but must read selectively to gather what is needed to follow the play. That, ideally, is how an informal inn can operate.

If a player wants to, he or she can write a bio for his character as a helpful reminder, but to ask players to post bios for an Inn sort of defeats the purpose of the improvisational play. It already makes the role playing into something formal, rather than an exploration. And it detracts from what is supposed to be the main or important writing: the actual thread. When gamers become so fixated on external documents, they lose track of how to write really interactive narrative. And that's what an inn is supposed to do: help players learn how to develop a game and action by actually practicing in a small on-going one..

.

I can't disagree more. I said you don't need a full life history but you seem to want people to literally stagger around in the dark, deprived even of the evidence of their own eyes which a person entering a real inn would have. Maybe I am really uptight but I like to be consistent with what others have said as much as what I have already done. I have also had my head ripped or sometimes merely bitten off by people ultra protective of their characters. Your ideal world bears no relation to the one I have tried to operate in.

I don't want to be in some freefall thing I want to have a firm foundation to build on. But now I know Ifall so far short of the ideal I at least know not to bother to take a new character to the Perch. I'll see what I have started to the end and call it a day.

[mark12_30]

.....Wow.

Peace???

[Nogrod]

Uhh... *Parrots Mark*

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't want to be perpetually negative - really I don't, but if you scrap character bios completely you make it very hard for new people to get started since not only do they have to pick up what is going on if anything (it took me hours upon hours to get a definitive "Story so far" for the cooks disappearance in the Golden Perch when I was trying to pick up that thread. If you don't give people an easy handle on at least what people look like you make if very hard for both new people to get started and indeed existing people to welcome them.

A full life history might be unnecessary, but I do think at least a bit of a description of what a character looks like would make it easier.

Indeed. The phrase "character sketch" comes to mind. Give me enough to go on.

However, do I really need to know where your character attended primary school...? Surprise me once in a while. Please. Enough of Tolkien's characters surprised even him (Aragorn, Faramir) that I think it is perfectly canonical and in the spirit of Tolkien to discover characters as we go. The team should be free to provide guidance-- no Jedis, please-- but I agree also with [b]Bethberry[/] that unexpected twists and turns, including new people, are what make writing a pleasure. What would we have done without came-out-of-absolutely-nowhere-Kali in The Lonely Star?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't want to be perpetually negative - really I don't, but if you scrap character bios completely you make it very hard for new people to get started since not only do they have to pick up what is going on if anything (it took me hours upon hours to get a definitive "Story so far" for the cooks disappearance in the Golden Perch when I was trying to pick up that thread. If you don't give people an easy handle on at least what people look like you make if very hard for both new people to get started and indeed existing people to welcome them.

A full life history might be unnecessary, but I do think at least a bit of a description of what a character looks like would make it easier.

Perhaps surprisingly, after yesterday's rounds of pleasant disagreement, I agree with Mith here. While it might be a good idea to truncate the character bios somewhat--I agree with the point that its hard to know what a character is like before you've even met him--doing away with them altogether will make things more difficult. Character bios--especially those grouped together on a planning thread--are a convenient short-cut for other players acquainting themselves with the other people in the game, and they're also helpful for the player in terms of establishing the basics of their character. That is to say, while you may not know the full history and/or inner workings of your character, you're going to know from the get-go if your character is a Hobbit, 56 years old, skilled, unmarried, craftsman from Michel Delving, and you'll know if he's tall, ruddy-cheeked, dark-haired, well dressed, etc.

[piosenniel]

Would this do? It's the abbreviated Character Sketch used for the Meadhall. It gives just the basics and also allows for those players who want to flesh their character out more fully:

NAME:

AGE/GENDER/RACE/WHERE FROM:

APPEARANCE (very brief physical description/or as detailed as the player wishes to be):

BITS OF CHARACTER/HISTORY YOU FEEL MIGHT BE HELPFUL IN DEFINING THE CHARACTER
(again, as brief or detailed as you wish):

[mark12_30]

Pio, I like it.

Mithadan, I went hunting for your questions that you want answered-- if I missed some please let me know. I'm reposting them for your perusal and editing.

You all are trying to convince me that: (1) we don't need as many rules; and (2) that you can not only create your own games without us looking over your shoulder and that your colleagues will demonstrate commitment, effort and a degree of skill with minimal mod involvement.

If, hypothetically (meaning no promises), we move to a system where a member can just start up a game, how do we control quantity ....

and Quality? (Quality is more obvious. Canonicity, a reasonable level of writing effort, if not skill, etc. A workable premise or story. )

It strikes me that retaining "veto" power would be more potentially embarrassing and annoying to a game facilitator/owner than some sort of simplified proposal process.

Do we set a limit on numbers of games running, at least until we understand how many gamers we have or do we trust the members to hash things out and if so how will this happen?

One thing I would like to see is a requirement that a member participate in at least a game or two here before he or she can open a game on their own.

And do we want Mod approval before starting a game or not? If a proposal is being discussed openly in a forum, realistically, how much extra work is it for someone to send PIO or whoever a PM and say "Take a look at this..."