Male and Female Orcs

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

It must be more than the difference between human ethnic groups, though– there are different breeds or races or whatever you like to call them among Men, Elves and Orcs (and Hobbits). And yet an Orc (of any kind) can be easily told from an Elf. So I suppose it would be closer to say they're subspecies.

Yes, but that's really the same thing, isn't it? Two subspecies may look slightly different , and may have developed different habits and abilities (think Darwin's finches), but ultimately they belong to the same stem of creatures and would interbreed and eventually converge into one group if put in one place together. It may not be politically correct to call different groups of people subspecies, nor would I encourage it, but the point remains.

Don't get me wrong though, I wasn't trying to infer any parallel between Orcs and any existing ethnic group of people. My point is that Orcs are Men/Elves really (though the fea, or soul, of an Elf is different to that of a Man), not any fairy-tale monster, and what makes an Orc has more to do with what's inside than what you can tell by visual inspection.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yes, but that's really the same thing, isn't it? Two subspecies may look slightly different , and may have developed different habits and abilities (think Darwin's finches), but ultimately they belong to the same stem of creatures and would interbreed and eventually converge into one group if put in one place together. It may not be politically correct to call different groups of people subspecies, nor would I encourage it, but the point remains.

It's actually not quite the same thing– a subspecies in biology is somewhat more distinct than a race, and in fact modern humans aren't generally considered to have any subspecies. (No, this is not just me being politically correct.)

[/Don't get me wrong though, I wasn't trying to infer any parallel between Orcs and any existing ethnic group of people. My point is that Orcs are Men/Elves really (though the fea, or soul, of an Elf is different to that of a Man), not any fairy-tale monster, and what makes an Orc has more to do with what's inside than what you can tell by visual inspection.

Yes, but my point is that the purely physical differences between Elves, Orcs and Men do seem to be greater than that between real-world ethnic groups; at the same time they can all interbreed, so must be essentially the same species. "Subspecies" seems like a good compromise to me.

[Galadriel55]

It's also possible that Tolkien emphasized the physical differences to demonstrate the inner differences. For example, we see how snake-like Grima really looks (and acts).

However, I can't say that big orcs are much different than small orcs except in appearance.

[Alfirin]

Actually if the Uruk-hai are a crossbred species it could explain why they are bigger than normal orcs. It is a well reconized feature of biology that, if you cross two closely realted species and make a hybrid, the hybrid will often become unusually large (in plants it's called hybrid vigor) sometimes far larger than either parent.
Actually having female Uruk-hai might be important to long term plans since it might be neccecary if one wanted a long term population of Uruks. Interspecies sterility is often confined only to males of the line, female members often remain fertile. It usually takes about three generations to get fertile males in an animal crossbreed. Assuming Sauron/Saruman etc. wanted a permanent Uruk presence, (as opposed to exterminating the Uruks as soon as he had mastered the world) I'm not sure if he would have thoght it worthwile If he couldnt have a self breeding population.

[Nerwen]

Just a note– Alfirin, it's specifically the Isengarders who were crossbreeds, not Uruk-hai in general. Apologies if I sound pedantic here– it's just that this does have a bearing on this "unpublished manuscript" business– see my post here.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

The question of cross-breeding is different, though– it's pretty much official that the Isengard Orcs were hybrids, the result of mating Orcs with humans. (I think it's quite understandable that P.J. chose not to depict that.:eek ) I don't think these Half-Orcs need have been sterile– the Peredhil weren't, after all.

(... from a later post...) Just a note– Alfirin, it's specifically the Isengarders who were crossbreeds, not Uruk-hai in general. Apologies if I sound pedantic here– it's just that this does have a bearing on this "unpublished manuscript" business– (...)

To add my pedantry, I would add the distinction that the Isengarders could be, as I think is the case, a mixed bunch: Uruk-hai (great soldier orcs) -- as well as Half-orcs (results of interbreeding).

The debate goes on, but my point is merely that Saruman's orcs need not be half-breeds -- these are aguably his Uruk-hai. And in general (not that anyone said otherwise) we don't necessarily need a hybrid to produce a larger orc, but selectively breeding larger orcs in general should do the trick.

At least there is an arguable distinction in the text concerning the half-orcs and the uruks (the half-orcs being taller for example, and some being man-like enough to serve as spies).

[Nerwen]

Compare:

Originally Posted by Rumils's acquaintance

...the really awful part is that any such offspring would only be chopped up to be used as seed or fertilizer for other Orcs being grown in the pits of filth where they are farmed (with various other ingredients added during the gestation in their womb of filth in order to specialize the crop). This is where the addition of human remains would be important to the creation of your "Man-Orc" or Uruk-Hai, but even this would take many generations. Maybe 20 years for five to ten generations, depending upon the quality of Orc wanted, the longer the time, the better the quality of Orc. So, Uruks would probably be four to five years per generation. That is still a very short time to breed Orcs, as a HUGE Army could be raised in relatively short times.

Also, many of the Orcs in a batch might not make it, or they might be cannibalized as food by those "Hatching" early.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia, article on Warhammer 40k "Orks"

Their cross-breeding with fungi allows them to reproduce asexually, which explains the lack of Ork females. This reproductive process basically involves the dispersion of spores from a decomposing Ork corpse, such that killing an Ork literally creates more Orks, explaining why Orks are such a difficult enemy to combat and how, along with their extreme physical hardiness, they can very easily infiltrate and build up large populations virtually anywhere. The only known solution to this problem is to incinerate the entire area to destroy all Orks and Ork spores. Because Orks are so genetically similar to plants and fungi, their diets are extremely flexible - Orks can be used not only as meat, but also as yeast and phytochemical-containing fibrous plantlike sides. Thus, Ork Pie is a staple of Ork diets, particularly on the battlefield, where little other food is available, and dead Orks are in abundance.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

)
Yes, but my point is that the purely physical differences between Elves, Orcs and Men do seem to be greater than that between real-world ethnic groups; at the same time they can all interbreed, so must be essentially the same species. "Subspecies" seems like a good compromise to me.

Fair enough. I've never seen the term "race" being used in biology or botany and therefore thought it was solely used on human ethnic groups, but clearly I was wrong. Subspecies sounds good.

Originally Posted by Gal55

It's also possible that Tolkien emphasized the physical differences to demonstrate the inner differences. For example, we see how snake-like Grima really looks (and acts).

Yes, Tolkien does that quite a lot. Just think of Gollum, who is essentially a Hobbit. Also, if we see LotR as written by Frodo, he too is likely to have exaggerated the Orcs' beastly looks and behaviour in my opinion (though this is contentious, granted). I do think that the physical or visual differences between Orcs and Men are much smaller that what people typically believe.

When the Elves first came across the Orcs in the First Age they came to the conclusion that the Orcs must be Avari gone savage in the wilderness, or something to that effect.* This recognition of kinship suggests that the two peoples weren't all that different (at least not then). Also, isn't one of the Southerners in Bree (the squint-eyed?) suspected to be a half-orc, or having orcish blood? Yet he is a man, living among Men, and, as it can be assumed, looking like one.

Yes, I think that Tolkien's Orcs should be pictured looking much more like Men and much less like the standard image of an Orc that has been developed by popular culture long after the prof. left us (RPGs, Comp. games, the films etc etc). Not saying they look just like men, mind.

*don't remember exactly where this is written, but I do remember reading it.