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#1 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,512
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THANK YOU! Now I remember! - Ok, so lets pretend that an orc gets a human woman pregnant. And she has a girl orc (it's a 50-50 thing, unless its some misshapen creature who isn't developed enough to be either gender). Paradoxical, aint it?
I asked a friend of mine who's a doctor if it's possible to somehow change the genes of a person to make it impossible for girls to be born. This is what she told me: Women have X+X chromosomes; men have X+Y chromosomes. An embrio always gets an X chromosome from its mother. It could get either a Y or an X from its father. The chromosome it gets from the father determines the gender. There is no known way to controll which chromosome will be given. Also, you cannot completely eliminate the X chromosome - you'd get a 'vegetable' person (such orcs are useless). Conclusion: there must have been orc-girls, and therefore orc-women.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 02-13-2011 at 07:03 PM. |
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#2 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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As William Cloud Hicklin said above, since it is said that the Orcs "had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar", I would think the existence of females in their population a foregone conclusion.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#3 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Quote:
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#4 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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PJ seems to have thought Orcs were a cross between Aliens and Yoda.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. Last edited by Inziladun; 02-13-2011 at 09:57 PM. |
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#5 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
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![]() I agree with Nerwen, that they were made in slime pits. Actually, I personally prefer the theory of them being corrupted elves. However, I can't see how Morgoth (or Sauron) could have got so many.
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"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil |
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#6 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Er- agree with me?
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#7 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,512
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I highly dislike the "mud pit theory" that is shown in the movies. Neither Sauron nor Morgoth could create, so how could they give life to a chunk of mud? Even Aule - who wasn't evil - couldn't do that without the helf of Eru.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#8 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
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Quote:
Mud-pit theory...never gave it much thought. Seems highly unscientific. I vote either corrupted elves or cross-breeds. Maybe a bit of both?
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"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil |
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#9 |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
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I think it's pretty clear that Orcs, Men and Elves biologically are the same species since they are interbreedable. The corruption that Morgoth achieved is mainly a moral one, he corrupted the souls of the to-be-Orcs you might say, yet, not even an Orc is born evil and they can potentially be saved, that Gandalf makes clear in LotR. I think I remember that Tolkien also makes it clear [in The Hobbit] that there are lots of Orcs around even today, and frankly, it hard to argue against that. Orcs aren't magically created monsters with long fangs and green skin. They are us, or rather, the worst examples of mankind.
I mean sure, you can see the difference between an Orc and a Man or an Elf, just as you can see the difference between say a Samoan and a Scandinavian and a West African, but those are "racial" differences and basically: Orcs are Men (and/or ex-Elves if you conscribe to that earlier theory) and they certainly have women because otherwise they simply could not multiply. Could go further with this but no time for that now...
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"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan Last edited by skip spence; 02-14-2011 at 09:51 AM. Reason: cleaning up |
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#10 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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The question of cross-breeding is different, though– it's pretty much official that the Isengard Orcs were hybrids, the result of mating Orcs with humans. (I think it's quite understandable that P.J. chose not to depict that.:eek ) I don't think these Half-Orcs need have been sterile– the Peredhil weren't, after all. *Also, technically the "latest-known", I think, although by that stage we're talking about some very muddled fragments.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. Last edited by Nerwen; 02-14-2011 at 08:55 AM. |
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#11 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Btw,, as I mentioned in my last post, it's not quite correct to talk about the "elf-origin" as an "earlier theory", since as far as I know Tolkien never exactly abandoned it– he just started playing around with others, and went back-and-forth. In the end I don't think you can say he left a clear "last word" on the subject.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#12 | |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
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Don't get me wrong though, I wasn't trying to infer any parallel between Orcs and any existing ethnic group of people. My point is that Orcs are Men/Elves really (though the fea, or soul, of an Elf is different to that of a Man), not any fairy-tale monster, and what makes an Orc has more to do with what's inside than what you can tell by visual inspection.
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"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan Last edited by skip spence; 02-14-2011 at 11:36 AM. |
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#13 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion
Posts: 551
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Orcs seem much more 'animal-like' than elves or humans, so, at least in my opinion, a crossbreed would be sterile. For example, if you mate a Negro with a Japanese (I'll just ignore the weird looks), the child won't be sterile. However, mating a human with a gorilla...not such a good idea.
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"Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?" – Tom Bombadil |
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#14 | |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7
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Why, if we're thinking they breeding naturally, would they get rid of their girls? They'd be pretty valuable. i don't go in for the slime pits because they're quite clearly not zombies, and I think Tolkein is clear that neither Sauron nor Saruman can give a being the spark of life on their own. They can't mold life out of mud. If they have a short gestation and maturation period (say 4-5 years as was suggested) you wouldn't need to deplete human nations of their women, you'd need at most a couple hundred, over a period of a couple years. If you base the rate of girls:boys on a human model you can have up 55 hybrid orc females the first year. I personally think this was what Tolkein had in mind but he was too much a gentleman concerned with the norms of his age to give us details. I should have looked here first when i signed up, rather than asked my question.... u guys are experts =) |
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#15 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Welcome to the Downs, Kyani!
And don't feel shy about asking questions– we all have many questions we'd like to ask Mr Bennington, but alas! We seem to have scared him away. ![]() (Btw, in case there's any confusion on the issue: I never said I thought Orcs *were* bred in slime pits, as in the films– in fact I think that's just a typo in Galadriel's post.)
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#16 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7
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Thank you Nerwen!
Glad to be here ![]() |
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