Was Melkor Bipolar?

[Durelin]

I wasn't suggesting anything about the application of a disorder to Melkor (I also disagree with it, but figured there was enough people coming down strongly against it). I was simply responding to some remarks I personally found a little disparaging in describing the disorder.

Yes, I realize lust's meaning has changed over time and really in my own vocabulary it doesn't necessarily mean sexual desire. It does seem to largely refer to desire; which is not necessarily a bad thing. Obviously the adjective 'lusty' was a positive adjective and really as far as I know could describe youthfulness or at least youthful vigor, which of course is full of desires. (One of the benefits of old age according to Seneca is the lack of desires, haha)

I don't think Melkor's 'lust' was necessarily (just) sexual desire, but perhaps the lust of owning a person in such a way that he clearly demonstrates his power. 'Lust' as simply 'sexual desire' is a pretty neutral feeling. Melkor's hardly neutral or hardly simple instinct. (I tried to express that I thought it was more than just simple sexual lust in my previous post, as well, but obviously it was short and didn't get much of anything across.)

"Then Morgoth looking upon her beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he fled from Valinor. Thus he was beguiled by his own malice, for he watched her, leaving her free for awhile, and taking secret pleasure in his thought."

Wen I read that, I think of lust in a sexual way because Tolkien specifies that Melkor apparently thought of her as 'beautiful,' but in the fuller context, it is more than just a sexual lust. He's bigger plans than that, with a darker heart. I don't have a text to look at and don't remember the story in full so I wonder what his design was that was somehow more dark than anything yet. And I recall the situation being rather strange...that Luthien is sort of distracting Melkor...why would she assume she could distract him? And was it with her physical beauty?

I seriously don't know why I posted when I honestly don't remember much and don't have any Tolkien books here with me at all.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

Readers are free to make any interpretation they wish, but they should also be able to justify their interpretion or explain their theoretical perspective.

Well, if they're posting in this forum, at least.

[Galadriel55]

*NOTE: Morgoth wanted to posess all of Arda, and all its beauty. If he could not take it, he'd rather destroy it.

He thought that he could keep Luthien to himself, just like he kept the Silmarilli.

[Durelin]

Then how was taking Luthien a 'design more dark' than any yet? He hadn't made up his mind what all he wanted at this point? I would think he wanted to possess and control (have the power to create and drestroy) from the beginning. Why was this 'more dark?' Just a way to make it sound more dramatic?

I think the possession here is of a different kind, because he focuses his desire for possession on an individual woman.

[Formendacil]

Although I agree that one should strongly avoid diagnosing literary characters with psychological illnesses (unless the diagnosis is made in-story), this thread raises an interesting question in my mind, about whether psychological illnesses are possible for Elves.

Now, let me be clear: I am not asking whether Elf X has Psychological Ailment Y. That falls under the general rubric of "impossible to say, because they're literary characters." However, it strikes me that even before one were to address the question of "does Elf X have condition Y," the question should be asked as to whether any Elf could have any psychological ailment.

We know that Elves were not generally susceptible to disease--but I have always taken that to mean germs (which psychological illness is not caused by) or physical defects (such as genetic illnesses or cancer).

Now, some psychological illnesses, I understand, ARE caused by things like genetic defects, which I would instinctively like to rule out. However, the issue is not 100% straightforward, because these are issues of the mind, and I would say there could be a case made that physical symptoms (such as chemical imbalances in the brain and whatnot) are caused by the mental issue, rather than the other way around--especially if you want to accept (as Tolkien did) that we have free will. Granted, not all mental illness would be attributable to free will originally, but it is certainly possible for a sane man to drive himself crazy.

There are also related issues. The first is that of Elves being biologically similar--if not the same--as Men, since they can interbreed, despite the obvious difference of fate. The second issue is that Elves do not seem to possess the same sort of free will as Men, since they don't share the Gift.

So... out of all this tangle of factoids, I ask the question: can Elves possess psychological illnesses as we know it? In other words, if Celeborn and Maglor wandered down to the Seventh Age, could modern psychology have shed light on some of their kinsmen of old? Even if we, as readers, can never, ever say for sure that any literary character has any psychological ailment, can we rule out psychological problems as we know them for the Eldar, or do we have to say they could still have been in play?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Durelin

I was simply responding to some remarks I personally found a little disparaging in describing the disorder.

Ah, I misread you. Sorry. I would add that it is not only disparaging but also disconcerting to compare the disease with the most satanic character in the Legendarium. It wasn't so long ago that people with mental illness were commonly regarded as possessed by the devil and treated horribly as a result.

Originally Posted by Durelin

I don't think Melkor's 'lust' was necessarily (just) sexual desire, but perhaps the lust of owning a person in such a way that he clearly demonstrates his power. 'Lust' as simply 'sexual desire' is a pretty neutral feeling. Melkor's hardly neutral or hardly simple instinct. (I tried to express that I thought it was more than just simple sexual lust in my previous post, as well, but obviously it was short and didn't get much of anything across.)

. . .

Wen I read that, I think of lust in a sexual way because Tolkien specifies that Melkor apparently thought of her as 'beautiful,' but in the fuller context, it is more than just a sexual lust. He's bigger plans than that, with a darker heart. I don't have a text to look at and don't remember the story in full so I wonder what his design was that was somehow more dark than anything yet. And I recall the situation being rather strange...that Luthien is sort of distracting Melkor...why would she assume she could distract him? And was it with her physical beauty?

It is confusing in part because the most central feature of Luthien is her beauty and lots of guys other than Beren fall for her, some more honourably than others. And out of her beauty, many things also beautiful can be created. She sings spring into being and is closely aligned with the natural world. Her word can make walls and towers crumble. Her voice is like the voice of nightengales and larks. Her beauty is the beauty of Arda. (See "Of Beren and Luthien"). In at least two instances, Huan speaks in matters related to her, so possibly her light is so strong that it can cause animals to speak. She may even be able to shape shift herself and Beren into other creatures. So that when Melkor conceives his evil lust and dark designs, it is well more than mere sexual desire: here he has a chance, if he captures her and gains control over her, to gain that power over Arda. He would be forcing the uttermost example of beauty to his vile ends. He would be perverting all light and goodness to evil. He wouldn't be just destroying beauty; he would be appropriating it for evil. Speculation, of course, but based on what Luthien is capable of.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Although I agree that one should strongly avoid diagnosing literary characters with psychological illnesses (unless the diagnosis is made in-story), this thread raises an interesting question in my mind, about whether psychological illnesses are possible for Elves.

Now, let me be clear: I am not asking whether Elf X has Psychological Ailment Y. That falls under the general rubric of "impossible to say, because they're literary characters." However, it strikes me that even before one were to address the question of "does Elf X have condition Y," the question should be asked as to whether any Elf could have any psychological ailment.

I love it when a question is redefined.

They are cetainly capable of some brutal behaviours because of various oaths, wraths, etc.--killing their own kin and they do seem to share many emotions with the other Children. There are also differences amongst the elves which might play into your question. Would the dark elves be more susceptible to mental illness?

We are told that Feanor becomes "fey" when "consumed by the flame of his own wrath". Given the context, this sounds closer to the old beserker warrrior mode than mental illness, but attacking Morgoth as he does certainly does sound like he's 'taken leave of his senses.'

Your answer may lie in the hroar/fea discussions about elves, methinks.

Originally Posted by Formy

The second issue is that Elves do not seem to possess the same sort of free will as Men, since they don't share the Gift.

There have been several very important discussions of this amongst Tolkien scholars. Fleiger believes the elves don't have free will, but there have been several responses to her in the pages of Tolkien Studies that argue cogently elves do have free will. (Some of them, at least, do choose to relinguish their bodies.) I suspect Galin would be better able than me to persue this line.

Originally Posted by Formy

can we rule out psychological problems as we know them for the Eldar, or do we have to say they could still have been in play?

I think it might be more fitting to ask what would be a Middle-earth understanding of mental illness.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

There have been several very important discussions of this amongst Tolkien scholars. Fleiger believes the elves don't have free will, but there have been several responses to her in the pages of Tolkien Studies that argue cogently elves do have free will. (Some of them, at least, do choose to relinquish their bodies.) I suspect Galin would be better able than me to pursue this line.

You'll note that I hedged my bets by saying Elves don't seem to have the same type of free will as Men. Personally, I think they have free will, but that it's of a different nature from Men--perhaps I want to have my cake and eat it too?

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I think it might be more fitting to ask what would be a Middle-earth understanding of mental illness.

Well, there's always room to redefine the question yet again.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

He would be forcing the uttermost example of beauty to his vile ends.

That's sort-of what I meant: if it's the greatest beauty, it's the greatest lust. (In this case, you could say that greatest=darkest)