Tolkien Translations

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Even a sentence like "In the green forest it was twilight" does not sound the same as "V zeleném lese bylo šero", and the, let's say, melody of the language is already different.

Lol, I understand that!

Therefore, names should be translated accordingly too, wherever it is appropriate.
...
because they are supposed to sound "like home", therefore, they should sound akin to placenames and surnames familiar to the reader

I agree. For exmple, "Baggins" would leave me staring blankly at the page (if I didn't know English), but "Torbins" would mean something, and therefore give off a certain spirit.

and then specific names, for instance Gollum, which conveys a certain sound, in case it sounded weird in the language into which it is being translated - in Czech, it is Glum, and that sounds really as if you are swallowing something nasty, while Gollum is a bit too long and has double consonant, which does not really fit the language and would start seeming strange.

Russian has a lot of consonants in words, at least more than English (we could have a combination of tstv, for example). Sometimes the translator added in some letters to names, especially Rohirric names, to make them more Russian-sounding. Taking Gollum as an example - it's made into Gorlum, with sounds like a gurgling noise.

Most of the poems and songs in LotR are translated really nicely, but the Rohirric ones, for some reason, are totally off - they don't rhyme, they don't alliterate, they sound like random "shouts in the dark".

They don't rhyme in Russian either, but they are melodic. The content of some poems (in generel, not only Rohirric) is sometimes changed slightly, but they sound terriffic, and most of them have rhyme. Some of them I like a little better in Russian, but maybe that's just because I'm used to them being that way.

So, all in all, my belief about translating the names in LotR is: what is English (in terms of the story, translated from Westron) should be translated into the respective language, only what is Elvish should be kept Elvish and so on, and words of questionable origin (like hobbit) can also be translated. After all, I am not sure what does Tolkien think, but the word "hobbit" is a translation, the "real" Westron word is kuduk, right? Therefore, I don't see why it should not be translated.

That is a very good point!



Another think that I want to mention is the line that Frodo says to Galadriel when offering her the Ring.

English: "You are wise and fearless and fair"

Translation: "You are wise, fearless, and just"


A curious difference, with the double-meaning of "fair". No one knows hich one Tolkien really meant...

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Another think that I want to mention is the line that Frodo says to Galadriel when offering her the Ring.

English: "You are wise and fearless and fair"
Translation: "You are wise, fearless, and just"

A curious difference, with the double-meaning of "fair". No one knows hich one Tolkien really meant...

That is very interesting, because the Finnish translation says: "You are wise, fearless and beautiful."

Originally Posted by Mith

But it is hard for me to say because I haven't read Tolkien in any other language - and having loathed some of the name translations in the French Harry Potter I don't know whether it would be a good idea.

I probably don't know French half as well as you, but I read the Fellowship in French a few years ago and found it disappointing (to say the least). It is simply bad, the translator has been very sloppy (the language has lost most of its beauty) and translated some stuff in a simply ghastly manner - or how does Saroumane le Multicolore sound to you for example? If you're interested, I have listed the names in The Fellowship of the Ring and made a few comments here.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

how does Saroumane le Multicolore sound to you for example?

Like a name of a printer.

[Galin]

After all, I am not sure what does Tolkien think, but the word "hobbit" is a translation, the "real" Westron word is kuduk, right? Therefore, I don't see why it should not be translated.

That's true, but hobbit is a Tolkien-invented word to represent a worn down form of holbytla, itself an Old English based construction intended to mean 'hole-builder, hole-dweller'... as kuduk was intended internally to represent a worn down form of a word used by the Rohirrim (thus 'Old English' holbytla) kûd-dûkan 'hole-dweller'

So kuduk has not simply been translated into English (as Quendi or Eldar with 'Elves'), but given an invented translation of Tolkien's own making, with the conceit of mirroring an internal relationship (kuduk to kûd-dûkan).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galin

That's true, but hobbit is a Tolkien-invented word to represent a worn down form of holbytla, itself an Old English based construction intended to mean 'hole-builder, hole-dweller'... as kuduk was intended internally to represent a worn down form of a word used by the Rohirrim (thus 'Old English' holbytla) kûd-dûkan 'hole-dweller'

So kuduk has not simply been translated into English (as Quendi or Eldar with 'Elves'), but given an invented translation of Tolkien's own making, with the conceit of mirroring an internal relationship (kuduk to kûd-dûkan).

Indeed! But now that is actually even "worse": now all translators should possibly start asking themselves whether they should not try to invent a word of their own which would resemble some ancient word for "hole-dweller" in their mothertongue... actually, thinking of that, at least within Indo-European languages, I wonder whether the "-bit" part at least could not be preserved (thinking of languages I know), in one way or another. But the beginning... I am just wildly guessing now, maybe something like Djerbyt or such would be appropriate in my mothertongue... but no, to be honest, I would prefer to keep the original to that.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Legate

Indeed! But now that is actually even "worse": now all translators should possibly start asking themselves whether they should not try to invent a word of their own which would resemble some ancient word for "hole-dweller" in their mothertongue... actually, thinking of that, at least within Indo-European languages, I wonder whether the "-bit" part at least could not be preserved (thinking of languages I know), in one way or another. But the beginning... I am just wildly guessing now, maybe something like Djerbyt or such would be appropriate in my mothertongue... but no, to be honest, I would prefer to keep the original to that.

Here's another way of looking at it: to the casual reader, "hobbit" is a nonsense word, but one that just sounds right: it fits into the structure of the language, and also into an existing pattern of English and Scottish fairytale-creature names (hobgoblin, boggart, etc). Maybe a translator should be aiming for a similar effect of half-familiarity, rather than worrying about the etymology?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Here's another way of looking at it: to the casual reader, "hobbit" is a nonsense word, but one that just sounds right: it fits into the structure of the language, and also into an existing pattern of English and Scottish fairytale-creature names (hobgoblin, boggart, etc). Maybe a translator should be aiming for a similar effect of half-familiarity, rather than worrying about the etymology?

I've heard it said that "hobbit" may have appealed to Tolkien in the context of The Hobbit being basically considered a "children's" story. The word bears a resemblance to "rabbit', so maybe there's something to that, since an eagle said Bilbo looked like a rabbit, and Beorn told Bilbo "little bunny is getting nice and fat...".
Children do have an affinity for cuddly things.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Like a name of a printer.

Washing powder for non-whites laundry.