Imagine no religion

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by TheMisfortuneTeller

According to Frazer's monumental study, both the magician and the priest claim to believe in unseen animal -- or animated -- spirits (One or several) who they claim make the observable world work as it does. Both claim to believe that the magician and the priest can sway these animal spirits -- or spooks -- to make things turn out the way the magician or the priest want. They differ, however, in that the magician believes that he can compel, or coerce, the Spook-or-spooks to do what he commands through spells and enchantments, while the priest believes that only his ritual grovelling and begging can convince the Spook-or-spooks to look favorably upon him and his tribe instead of some other priest or tribe. Therein lies the distinction between "Magic" and "Religion" -- both forms of Animism, but differing in their advertised ways of dealing with the unseen Big-Animal or host-of-little-unseen-animals -- none of which exist outside the fanciful human imagination. I leave it to the interested reader of The Hobbit and/or The Lord of the Rings to determine which form of animist behavior best describes Tolkien's Middle-earth: Magical or Religious.

Going by those parameters, it doesn't appear that LOTR fits the bill for "Magical" or "Religious".

You say that "the magician believes that he can compel, or coerce, the Spook-or-spooks to do what he commands through spells and enchantments".
Where in the books is that found? "Spells" are used by people who either, as Gandalf, have an innate ability to affect the physical environment, or, like the Witch-king, have so submerged themselves in the identity of those with innate power that they are able to "borrow" it. Spells are used in the books to affect the physical environment and further the cause of the caster, but I know of no instance in which they are used to "compel, or coerce" a higher power to do one's bidding.

Then, on the "religious" side, you say "the priest believes that only his ritual grovelling and begging can convince the Spook-or-spooks to look favorably upon him and his tribe instead of some other priest or tribe."
Likewise, I see no instance of that. The original premise of this thread was in fact that it is difficult to find any organised, ritualistic divine worship in the books. The sole exception is, as has been noted, the Númenóreans and their "Satanistic" Morgoth-cult. Crying to Elbereth for help in times of need may be considered a prayer, but there is no ritual involved, and it is done by anyone who feels the need for it, like Frodo and Sam. There is no priest to serve as an intermediary between the Middle-earth denizen and the Valar. The Valar themselves are intermediaries between the Children and the Creator.

As blantyr said, "complicated" does seem to be the watchword here.

[Pitchwife]

First, about the Frazer quote and a bit off topic, I suspect animals (at least domesticated ones) don't need to speculate about gods or spirits because they have us; and no doubt they quite often think that the gods must be crazy.

Second,

Originally Posted by TheMisfortuneTeller

I agree completely with this usage of the more comprehensive term "Animist" in preference to the parochial and sectarian manifestations of received religious rituals that many people unconsciously assume when they -- loosely -- use the term "religious."

Well, I don't, mainly because if you say all religions are animistic, you make the words animist and religious synonyms, and thus one of them redundant - unless you mean that there are also forms of animism that are not religious; and it seems you do mean that when you say:

Originally Posted by TheMisfortuneTeller

Therein lies the distinction between "Magic" and "Religion" -- both forms of Animism, but differing in their advertised ways of dealing with the unseen Big-Animal or host-of-little-unseen-animals

But only a few lines above you said:

Originally Posted by TheMisfortuneTeller

Professor Tolkien opted -- in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings -- for the creation of a "Magical" world instead of an Animist or "religious" one.

- again using animist=religious as synonymous and opposed to magical.
See why I prefer to use the term in a narrow sense?

Third, no need for the bolding. We can all read and recognize a distinction without having it shoved in our faces.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Going by those parameters, it doesn't appear that LOTR fits the bill for "Magical" or "Religious".

Which, if I understood him right, is more or less what TMT was originally saying before he entangled himself in the intricacies of terminology.

About the eagles - I think you may be right that they were sent more for the Númenóreans benefit than the Valar's. Remember the Three Houses of the Edain originally were dissenters from Morgoth worship (as per Adanel's Tale in the Athrabeth); the Valar may have feared that their descendants might relapse if left to themselves (and surprise, they did!), so they felt a need to remind the Númenóreans "We're watching you." And I think it's no coincidence that the last warning omen from the West in the days of Ar-Pharazôn was a cloud of eagles - "The eagles of the Lords of the West are at hand!", no longer as witnesses, but in wrath.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by TheMisfortuneTeller

They differ, however, in that the magician believes that he can compel, or coerce, the Spook-or-spooks to do what he commands through spells and enchantments, while the priest believes that only his ritual groveling and begging can convince the Spook-or-spooks to look favorably upon him and his tribe instead of some other priest or tribe. Therein lies the distinction between "Magic" and "Religion" -- both forms of Animism, but differing in their advertised ways of dealing with the unseen Big-Animal or host-of-little-unseen-animals -- none of which exist outside the fanciful human imagination.

It would be very easy to build a cynical political model of how religion works, with or without actual magical powers by gods and priests. Perhaps the congregation provides power through worship needed by the gods and priests. Perhaps the congregation can coerce the gods through groveling and begging. Perhaps the prayers are compulsive, that the gods might have to act. Perhaps a god who does not respond to requests just doesn't get worshipped. Perhaps the priests are in it to maximize their own power, using the congregation and the gods equally. One could create a cynical scheme where all parties involved are asking 'what's in it for me', and acting in a selfish fashion.

One could create such a system of religion, but I don't think the above is at all what Tolkien did with Middle Earth. There is no priesthood trying to optimize their own power and influence. The Valar have an abundance of power, have no need to demand or coerce worship. The divinities seem more or less sane and rational, though hardly perfect and ideal. I have no sense that they would respond well to groveling or begging. Quite the contrary, they seem ready to let ordinary beings handle thing by themselves the majority of the time. Individuals in extreme situations might appeal to the Valar, but the sense that I get is that you don't bother them for little stuff. Even then, you might sort of let them know there is a problem by quickly invoking their Names, then do the best one can with or without their help.

I can see both wizardly and religious magic in Middle Earth. I do see an abundance of fea all over the place: Valar, elves, humans, trees, rocks, weather and most everything in between. One might apply various words used to describe human religions to Middle Earth, but I wouldn't expect to be able to neatly pidgin hole things.

But the notion that one should grovel and beg to manipulate the Valar… That just doesn't feel right. Whether one is writing fan fiction, role playing or holding a academic discussion, that just doesn't feel like the way to gain their sympathy or support. I'd recommend performing a great heroic deed or two. If you can't sing as well as Lúthien, I'd avoid the groveling and begging.

[Galadriel55]

I want to bring up one passage from The Sil:

And seeing no better hope, [Fingon] cried to Manwe, saying: "O King to whom all birds are dear, speed now this feathered shaft, and recall some pity for the Noldor in their need!"
His prayer was answered swiftly.

There is prayer in times of need, but still no mention of an organised worship system.