Imagine no religion

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by TheMisfortuneTeller

Now, Tolkien could have written this scene differently, from an animist perspective, in which case the Balrog on one side of the door and Gandalf on the other side of the door each get down upon their respective knees imploring their respective invisible deity-spooks (Melkor or Iluvatar, respectively) to either open or shut the damned door for them. But Tolkien didn't write the scene that way, for which considerate mercy I have always felt profoundly grateful.

I don't think the actions of angelic spirits should be taken into account in this debate. Neither Gandalf nor the Balrog would have had any need for "prayer" in that circumstance. Being "divine" spirits of the Maia themselves, they were not of the Children of Ilúvatar, and had their own inherent powers. Elves and Men in fact reverenced the Maia in that respect, such as Ossë and Uinen.

Originally Posted by TheMisfortuneTeller

As Frazer puts it, the belief in Magic precedes and underlies the later belief in Animism (essentially, magicians pushed into the invisible background to make room for the intercessor-middleman-priest). "This universal faith, this truly Catholic creed, is a belief in the efficacy of magic. While religious systems differ not only in different countries, but in the same country in different ages, the system of sympathetic magic remains everywhere and at all times substantially alike in its principles and practice. Among the ignorant and superstitious classes of modern Europe it is very much what it was thousands of years ago in Egypt and India, and what it now is among the lowest savages surviving in the remotest corners of the world."

And all that is Frazer's opinion. Really, I don't see how that is relevant, unless one can show that Tolkien thought along the same lines.

Originally Posted by TheMisfortuneTeller

Tolkien's magical mythology appeals to the deeper and more universal levels of the human psyche which persist stubbornly throughout human history regardless of the transient local dominance of various animist factions.

Yet Tolkien did say:

The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously so in the revision.

Letter 142

The fact that the works do enjoy such popularity may have many reasons, but I don't think one can say a conscious rejection of religion was part of it.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't think the actions of angelic spirits should be taken into account in this debate. Neither Gandalf nor the Balrog would have had any need for "prayer" in that circumstance. Being "divine" spirits of the Maia themselves, they were not of the Children of Ilúvatar, and had their own inherent powers. Elves and Men in fact reverenced the Maia in that respect, such as Ossë and Uinen.

I'll throw up another perspective, pushing Inziladun's perspective a bit. Now, I haven't read Osanwe-kenta, Tolkien's essay on telepathy in Middle Earth. From various tidbits and reviews I gather the following… Range is not a large factor. Both individuals communicating don't have to be overly powerful. The power of the stronger is far more important than the lesser. The telepathy works best if there is a bond of authority, familiarity or a sense of urgency.

This sounds like a plausible conduit for prayer.

The other factor, as Inziladun says, is that very strong beings have innate power. I would count Eru, the valar, the maia, those who have seen the Trees, those who have dwelt in the blessed lands, all elves to a lesser extent, and some Dúnedain as among those who have such power. These might to greater or lesser extent practice the Art, a use of their own innate ability to effect things outside themselves. The telepathy of Osanwe-kenta would be just one sort of such manipulation.

In this context, religious magic might come in two parts. The first is telepathy, as an individual communicates with a divine being. The second is the divine being using his innate ability in answer to the prayer. I see no reason to distinguish between Gandalf's wizardly magic and Elbereth taking action from Mount Everwhite save that Elbereth might need to be told that something needs her attention. One might ask how much range the Valar have when manipulating the world. It would have to be considerable, perhaps indefinite.

I see Tolkien's magic as taking on many aspects. Religion and wizardly magics are just two. One can go on to prophecy, oaths, curses, the undead, fate, the creation of enchanted items, weather, corruption and other elements. It would be nice to unite them, to see underlying themes where one sort of magic merges smoothly with the next.

Is the above way of seeing religious and wizardly magic as aspects of the same thing plausible?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by The Misfortune Teller

Now, Tolkien could have written this scene differently, from an animist perspective, in which case the Balrog on one side of the door and Gandalf on the other side of the door each get down upon their respective knees imploring their respective invisible deity-spooks (Melkor or Iluvatar, respectively) to either open or shut the damned door for them. But Tolkien didn't write the scene that way, for which considerate mercy I have always felt profoundly grateful.

Agreed, if for no other reason then because having them get down to pray in the middle of an action-packed scene would have ruined the pace (a thing that irks me about clerics in D&D); but also because the Balrog broke Gandalf's spell, which if it was due to divine intervention rather than their respective innate power would imply that the Balrog's 'god' was stronger than Gandalf's, and I can't see Tolkien intending that.

(Can we, however, also agree that, whatever we may believe about our real world, from the immanent perspective of Tolkien's subcreated world Eru and the Valar were reality? Dismissing them as 'spooks' doesn't seem quite adequate.)

Originally Posted by TMT

Tolkien's magical mythology appeals to the deeper and more universal levels of the human psyche which persist stubbornly throughout human history regardless of the transient local dominance of various animist factions.

Looking strictly at LotR, and leaving the Silmarillion and Tolkien's later theological/metaphysic writings (where Eru and the Valar figure much more prominently) out of the picture, yes. Even in LotR, there are hints of divine providence at work behind the scenes, but done very subtly and vaguely and avoiding any mention of specific systems of theology or worship (or 'animist factions').

About prayers to Elbereth or the Valar in general (which are about the only instances of overt religious behaviour in LotR that come to my mind), I doubt they would have to be told when their attention was needed, and I really can't see that any coercion was involved. (Frankly, the thought that e.g. Sam 'speaking in tongues' at Cirith Ungol would be able to coerce Elbereth feels rather ridiculous.) So what exactly was the point of prayer in Middle-earth? Maybe it was just a question of the praying person acknowledging "I can't cope with this on my own, I need help."

(To illustrate my point, my other favourite fantasy writer, Stephen R. Donaldson, wrote a short story Unworthy of the Angel from the pov of angel on a covert mission to save the soul of an artist who has made or is about to make a pact with the devil; the story derives its tension from the premise that the angel is powerless/forbidden to interfere openly until the person concerned, i.e. the artist, gives him permission by calling out for help. Maybe the Valar were under a similar restriction regarding the Younger Children in the Third Age?)

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

(Can we, however, also agree that, whatever we may believe about our real world, from the immanent perspective of Tolkien's subcreated world Eru and the Valar were reality? Dismissing them as 'spooks' doesn't seem quite adequate.)

I'd second this. I am quite cynical about many real world religions, and was very cynical when I created my clerical and religious system for my D&D world. However, viewing Tolkien's works through the filter of a cynical view of religion in general isn't apt to get one close to the spirit of his works.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

(To illustrate my point, my other favourite fantasy writer, Stephen R. Donaldson, wrote a short story Unworthy of the Angel from the pov of angel on a covert mission to save the soul of an artist who has made or is about to make a pact with the devil; the story derives its tension from the premise that the angel is powerless/forbidden to interfere openly until the person concerned, i.e. the artist, gives him permission by calling out for help. Maybe the Valar were under a similar restriction regarding the Younger Children in the Third Age?)

The briefings the Valar gave to the five wizards might reflect this. The Istari were to work against Sauron, but were forbidden to use force or fear. I would strongly suspect the Valar had a similar code of behavior that limited their own actions.