Thorin in the Blue Mountains

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

There is also the fact that at no point are we told that sucession amoung the dwarves is stricly primogeneric, that is that the oldest son of the current (or most recent) ruler is ipso facto the heir to the throne. Given Tolkein's love of Nordic tradtions, I think it is possible he imagined Dwarven sucession more along Nordic lines, where (if I understand correctly) often any male member of the ruling family was considered a viable candidate for next kind, and getting the throne relied as much on whether or not the court and people wanted you as who your father was and when in the line of his kids you were born. Being the heir of Durin's bloodline may help Thorin's claim, but it may not be enough to make him Dwarf heir apparent on it's own.

That is an interesting point. It seems very reasonable, particularly regarding the Nordic link.

However, to the best of my knowledge we know of no case where the eldest surviving son didn't follow his father...of course our knowledge is limited.

Looks to me as if Thorin was just too poor to be taken seriously as a king in the Ered Luin.

That sounds likely to be true.

[Puddleglum]

More likely, it was simply that there were not enough of a concentration of Durin's Dwarves present in the Erid Luin to constitute a "Kingdom."

• First they had their mansions at Khazad-dum.
• When driven out, Most of them followed Thrain I to Erebor, where they established their new kingdom Under The Mountain.
• Then Thorin I removed to the Grey Mtns where "most of Durin's folk were <now> gathering."
• Later, after Dain I was slain, "most of Durin's folk abandoned the Grey Mountains" and while many went to the Iron Hills, Thror and the rest of Durin's folk returned to Erebor.
• After the coming of Smaug, it's an open question why Thror and the remnant didn't go to the Iron Hills - maybe fearing that Gror wouldn't have been happy to be displaced by Thror in his own home - maybe Thror was too proud to take over lordship in a place built up be someone else, especially his brother.
• However, given that few escaped the sack of Erebor, and the Iron Hills dwarves likely weren't interested in uprooting to travel to poorer mines in the Ered Luin - especially as they were over 1200 miles away - Thror (and Thrain & Thorin) had only a few followers - not sufficient to say "this is our Kingdom".

Once, however, Thorin's quest was successful, the Iron Hills dwarves *were* willing to relocate to Erebor - only about 200 miles - and renew the Kingdom - Erebor being a far more worthy destination than simple "Iron Mines" in the Blue Mtns.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Once, however, Thorin's quest was successful, the Iron Hills dwarves *were* willing to relocate to Erebor - only about 200 miles - and renew the Kingdom - Erebor being a far more worthy destination than simple "Iron Mines" in the Blue Mtns.

The general consensus, one which I agree with, is that the Iron Hills were not abandoned during this process so its not like someone couldn't stay there if they wanted to after Dain left.

[FlimFlamSam]

Kuruharan spoke: [However, to the best of my knowledge we know of no case where the eldest surviving son didn't follow his father...of course our knowledge is limited.]
I'm not so sure about that.

Balin, Lord of Moria. Not the son of a previous king.
In strict "eldest male relation to the last king" ascension, that would be Dain II as the "rightful heir" to Khazad-dum after Thorin II's death Would Fili and Kili count at all even if they had lived, considering the note concerning sister-son dwarves in the HOME Peoples of Middle-earth? Who knows.

Durin VII reclaimed Khazad-dum (as per HOME Peoples of Middle-earth son of Thorin III--and only "guessed at" in Lord of the Rings). He did not remain (if he even took the title) King Under the Mountain (Erebor).

[Mithalwen]

But Lord isn't the same as King. He can be lord of Moria and still be a loyal subject of Dain. Rather as the Princes of Dol Amroth ruled their land as afiefdom of Gondor - even in the absence of the King they seem to be subject to the Stewards - Imrahil only takes nominal charge in the power vacuum left by Denethor.

[Galadriel55]

Moreover, Balin was Lord of Moria, not Erebor.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Returning to the original question, the most complete discussions of Thorin's years of exile are in HME XII and UT. Forgive the long quotations: brevity will have to cede its place to completeness.

[A discussion of Thorin and Thráin's parts in the Battle of Nanduhirion precedes this passage.]

Thus [Thorin] got his name, or also because in memory of this he bore ever after at his back a shield made of oak wood without colour or device, and vowed to do so until he was hailed again as king.

When Thráin went away Thorin was 95, a great dwarf of proud bearing and full manhood. Maybe because rid of the Ring, Thorin long remained in Ered Luin, labouring and journeying and gathering such wealth as he could, until his people had fair houses in the hills and were not [? ill content], though in their songs they spoke ever of the Lonely Mountain and the wealth and bliss of the Great Hall and the light of the Arkenstone. But the years lengthened, and the embers of his heart began to grow hot as Thorin brooded on the wrongs of his house and people. Remembering too that Thrór had lain upon him the vengeance due to Smaug.

But Erebor was far away and his people only few; and he had little hope that Dáin Ironfoot would help in any attempt upon the dragon. For Thorin thought ever after the manner of his kingly forefathers, counting forces and weapons and the chances of war, as his hammer fell on the red iron in his forge.

The Peoples of Middle-Earth (HME XII), p.281

Typescript B of the early version of this tale as given in UT follows essentially the same story.

So Thorin Oakenshield became the Heir of Durin, but an heir without hope. At the sack of Erebor he had been too young to bear arms, but at Azanulbizar he had fought in the van of the assault; and when Thráin was lost he was ninety-five, a great Dwarf of proud bearing. He had no Ring, and (for that reason maybe) he seemed content to remain in Eriador. There he laboured long, and gained such wealth as he could; and his people were increased by many of the wandering folk of Durin that heard of his dwelling and came to him. Now they had fair halls in the mountains, and store of goods, and their days did not seem so hard, though in their songs they spoke ever of the Lonely Mountain far away, and the treasure and bliss of the Great Hall in the light of the Arkenstone.

The years lengthened. The embers in the heart of Thorin grew hot again, as he brooded on the wrongs of his House and of the vengeance upon the Dragon that was bequeathed to him. He thought of weapons and armies and alliances, as his great hammer rang in the forge; but the armies were dispersed and the alliances were broken and the axes of his people were few; and a great anger without hope burned him, as he smote the red iron on the anvil.

UT p.328

It's fairly obvious, even had we not Christopher Tolkien's word for it, that these passages are quite closely related. Indeed, the second is a reworded and condensed version of the first that changes no significant detail. The main point appears to be that the recovery of Erebor remains Thorin's chief concern. He takes the extraordinary step of displaying no emblem on his shield until he can recover his grandfather's kingdom; he broods on a desire to recover it by open war, but we are reminded that his people are too few and his alliances too unreliable for this to be possible. Gandalf even reminds him elsewhere in The Quest of Erebor that an army of Dwarves would have to face worse enemies than Smaug before they reached Erebor, even if such a force could be gathered at all.

It seems, then, that the Ered Luin and, indeed Eriador in general, are simply temporary homes to Thorin; convenient places to build up his wealth and following until an assault on Smaug can be mounted. To declare himself king of the Blue Mountains would in a way be an admission that he had given up the idea of reclaiming the Lonely Mountain. It seems fairly clear to me that he is uninterested in any other title, and no doubt bound up with this is the theme of the duty of vengeance that Tolkien stresses so forcefully. Thorin has an hereditary blood feud with Smaug, which is a more serious obligation even than reclaiming the kingdom of his ancestors. To take for himself any other lordship would be at best a distraction from his chief purpose.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And when I think about it, was it really beyond the powers of a large force of Dwarves, say the size of the army at the Battle of Nanduhirion, to have destroyed one Balrog? After all, one Elf accomplished just that twice in Gondolin.

I think we need to be very careful when comparing the old Fall of Gondolin material with LR. Tolkien's conception of the individual strength of the Balrogs changed a great deal in the twenty years or so that separate them. Regardless of the possibility of killing Durin's bane, however, there are at least two reasons why the survivors of Nanduhirion would not have faced him.

The first reason is one of motive. As the unnamed survivors themselves declare: "We fought this war for vengeance, and vengeance we have taken. But it is not sweet. If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it." [1] The Dwarves at Nanduhirion all had homes to go to; they were not in a position to undertake a long occupation of Moria. It was more than they signed up to do.

Hinted at in these words is the second reason: the battle of Azanulbizar was characterised by heavy losses on both sides. It's likely that the Dwarven survivors were too few and too exhausted to face something like a Balrog, even had they wanted to take back Moria.

As regards the succession of Durin, Dáin is not only the most obvious, but possibly the only heir. He is the eldest remaining member of the senior line of descent, and he has an army at his back. Given the information available I can't think of someone better qualified, and Dwarves are nothing if not practical.

***

[1] LR Appendix A, p.1049