Thorin in the Blue Mountains

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Rumil speaks to something that occurred to me almost immediately as a possible piece of the puzzle. Revenge is close to the heart of Dwarves who have suffered ill at another's hands. So along with all the economic, namesake, and suchlike reasons, I can see Thorin refusing to settle for anything less on the sheer grounds that he will not let Smaug demean him into naming anything but Erebor his kingdom.

So was it personality difference between Thorin and his predecessors who did relocate their kingdoms after Moria or did it just seem more likely they would be able to kill a dragon over a something they didn't know what it was at the time?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

So was it personality difference between Thorin and his predecessors who did relocate their kingdoms after Moria or did it just seem more likely they would be able to kill a dragon over a something they didn't know what it was at the time?

Hmm... I see your point. It strikes me that Thorin and company never really did have a plan, at least not until Gandalf came around. But hunger for revenge does not require hope of its achievement, nor bear any resemblance to reality.

One must not forget the simple avarice of Dwarves. A Dwarf King would move his kingdom if he believed there wa a richer mine upon which he could found one. I suspect Thorin did not think he could do better than Erebor, nor even achieve a shadow of that glory, which bears out considering their own talk of having to take on mere smithying and coal mining.

[Galadriel55]

Bringing up a quote:

...Gandalf looked at him with wonder. "That is strange, Thorin Oakenshield," he said. "For I have thought of you also; and though I am on my way to the Shire, it was in my mind that is the way also to your halls."
"Call them so, if you will," said Thorin. "They are only poor lodgings in exile. But you would be welcome there, if you would come. ..."

So on one hand he's in exile, ie not in his land. On the other hand, he has enough power to welcome Gandalf.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

So on one hand he's in exile, ie not in his land. On the other hand, he has enough power to welcome Gandalf.

Well, Bilbo Baggins has enough "power" to welcome Gandalf, too.

[Inziladun]

Going back to something Pitchwife said, it seems rather odd to me that the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm allowed themselves to be ousted from their most famous, greatest mansion in the first place.
Granted, the Balrog was a creature the likes of which they'd not met before, but still: they didn't know precisely what the Necromancer was either, but that didn't stop Thorin from entertaining ideas about trying to take him out.

And when I think about it, was it really beyond the powers of a large force of Dwarves, say the size of the army at the Battle of Nanduhirion, to have destroyed one Balrog? After all, one Elf accomplished just that twice in Gondolin.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And when I think about it, was it really beyond the powers of a large force of Dwarves, say the size of the army at the Battle of Nanduhirion, to have destroyed one Balrog? After all, one Elf accomplished just that twice in Gondolin.

It was beyond their strength to keep it from driving them out of their homes in the first place.

Elves, particularly the powerful elves, had greater innate spiritual strength.

Not to say it couldn't have been done but it wasn't very likely.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

It was beyond their strength to keep it from driving them out of their homes in the first place.

Elves, particularly the powerful elves, had greater innate spiritual strength.

Not to say it couldn't have been done but it wasn't very likely.

So in Middle-earth math, one Noldo > thousands of Dwarves?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

So in Middle-earth math, one Noldo > thousands of Dwarves?

Apparently. But do remember that in the 1st Age the puissance (spiritual and otherwise) of all the Children of Iluvatar was not yet splintered as it became by the 3rd Age.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

So in Middle-earth math, one Noldo > thousands of Dwarves?

Not as such. I think it's more a matter of match-ups. The greatest of the Eldar had the particular skill/talent/whatever to match up with a Balrog's particular strengths and weaknesses (whatever they may be), the Dwarves apparently didn't (at least in the setting of the Mines). That doesn't mean that an Elf hero would match-up so well against the strengths/weaknesses of an army of Dwarves.

It may be as simple as the Elves having a defense (lacked by Dwarves) against the Balrog's primary attack methods. Or, to use a slightly wacky illustration,

• Sissors (Dwarves) Cuts Paper (Elves)
• Paper (Elves) Wraps Rock (Balrog)
• Rock (Balrog) Smashes Sissors (Dwarves)

That is, in fighting, A Beats B and B beats C does *not* necessarily mean A beats C.

Of course, don't read too much into this illustration. In reality, Elves (esp Noldor) hold their own pretty well against Dwarves also.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Well, Bilbo Baggins has enough "power" to welcome Gandalf, too.

In his own country and in his own house. I'd assume it's the king/lord/ruler of the land that could welcome guests such as Gandalf (the Shire has no King, lols).