WW LXXXVII - The Valley Forge

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by the phantom

King’s Dwarf- please die as soon as possible- as in the first two days. The instant you die and we see your role revealed, we can simply look at which individuals you suspected and lynch them, and presto! Game over. Good guys win. And if the bad dwarves figure out immediately Day 1 that you're the KD, so what? What are they going to do about it? Kill you? *snicker*

Good thinking there - provided that the KD would be willing to sacrifice his personal winning condition for the sake of a village victory. Also, KD, try to get lynched rather than Night-killed to avoid a double kill.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Sweetheart- find the King’s Dwarf as soon as possible, as once you find him it will make it more likely that he will die (due to him protecting you at night plus once you know who he is you can lynch him).

Like this as well. If nothing else, finding each other will make both your lives a little easier for a while - though maybe shorter; anyway, once you have found the KD and while he's alive, you should strive for the reverse manner of death (i.e. Night-kill rather than lynching).

Originally Posted by the phantom

And quick word of advice to the Sweetheart- don’t waste your time. I’m quite busy with my smithing, digging, and other dwarf stuff and have no interest in starting a family at the moment. Plus you’re just not my type. Uuuuuuuugly.

Now this looks just like you're one of those Dwarves who prefer ogling long-legged elven blondes to doing their duty for the proliferation of our kind. No wonder we Khazâd are a dwindling race.

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

But we need to kill the KD in order to win, right?

Depends on who you mean by we. Technically, we don't, as he counts as an innocent in the tally IIRC - but phantom's plan does have a certain appeal.

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

*cough* Would the Weredwarves care to reveal?

Naughty boy! Reveals are forbidden, remember? Or are you trying to get the Forgers modfired? If so, nice attempt, but I don't think it'll be that easy.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Pitch

Good thinking there - provided that the KD would be willing to sacrifice his personal winning condition for the sake of a village victory.

What do you mean, "sacrifice his personal winning condition"? All I see in the rules is this-

Originally Posted by Rules

The King's Dwarf has succeeded in his mission when all of the Forge members are dead.

So if he fingers the forge members then gets himself killed, and then we lynch the baddies, he wins.

The rules don't say he has to live to achieve victory. It merely says he wins if the baddies die. So if he hands us the knowledge to kill the baddies, it doesn't matter if he lives or dies. It isn't truly a sacrifice on his part, it's an intelligent strategic move. The KD has no reason not to be on board with this so far as I can tell.

(No doubt the Forge members in their conversations at night have tried or will try to convince the KD that he has some sort of reason to play nice, or worry about dying, etc. in order to fool him into giving up his power. Hopefully he sees through their mind games.)

Originally Posted by Wilwa

But we need to kill the KD in order to win, right? So really everyone wants him dead, but the baddies want him dead ASAP, while we'd maybe like to keep him around a bit longer so he can help out the watchdwarf.

Nope. It would be preferable to lynch the KD on Day 1. Then when we see his identity, we'll look back at his posts and see he suspects persons X, Y, and Z, and then we lynch them, knowing that they are the Forge members.

And like I said, it doesn't matter if the KD goes after the Forge hardcore during the day, because they'll be too terrified to off him at night, as it would reveal their own identity.

Can anyone see anything wrong with this?

[the phantom]

Quick note to the KD- if you're on board with the plan, don't suspect the Forge members too early in the day before anyone else is showing any suspicions, as that would be too obvious- particularly if you strongly suspect exactly three people too early on, as that would possibly qualify under Foley's rules as a "reveal", thus sabotaging the game.

I want to lynch you, but I don't want to ruin things by getting you modfired.

[Bom Tombadillo]

I'm back!

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Naughty boy! Reveals are forbidden, remember? Or are you trying to get the Forgers modfired? If so, nice attempt, but I don't think it'll be that easy.

Er, yes, that's . . . exactly what I was doing . . .

[Boromir88]

I forgot phantom joined the crew, but alas he had to make sure we all remembered within the first 10 seconds.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Boro

I forgot phantom joined the crew

Whatever.

You know good and well you squealed and wet yourself with excitement when you saw my name on Foley's list.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Whatever.

You know good and well you squealed and wet yourself with excitement when you saw my name on Foley's list.

I'm afraid among other males only Jon Stewart could get that reaction from me. There was a time when I appreciated the brazen ego with the brilliant intellect. I didn't think it possible your ego could get any bigger, but that's what blind hero-worship does.

The irrational side of me wants nothing more than to see you lynched, but the utiltarian in me says you're so remarkably useful it would be foolish to waste a dwarf of your talents.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Boro

I'm afraid among other males only Jon Stewart could get that reaction from me.

But what about..... SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHH!!!!

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by tp

The rules don't say he has to live to achieve victory. It merely says he wins if the baddies die.

Hmm, interesting. The N1 narration says

Originally Posted by Folwren

These they are that I must bring down, or go down in my attempt.

I read that as an exclusive or, but it could actually be inclusive, so the KD might be allowed to share a village victory even if dead, more or less like a cobbler earning bragging rights by sacrificing themselves to help the wolves win. Revisiting the rules, it looks like you're probably right.

Originally Posted by Boro

I'm afraid among other males only Jon Stewart could get that reaction from me.

As long as it's not Jon Snow...

[Bom Tombadillo]

"Alas," you say? A wolf desperately trying to kill the second-deadliest member of the village day 1? Not unlikely, I think.

EDIT; X'd with the phantom.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Bom

"Alas," you say? A wolf desperately trying to kill the second-deadliest member of the village day 1?

I was about to take offense at this, but then I remembered that under this setup the KD is technically more deadly than Phantom.

Ugh, it kills me to admit that.

[Galadriel55]

This looks like the loudest beginning of Day One ever.

Originally Posted by the phantom

What do you mean, "sacrifice his personal winning condition"?

Well, you can't win if you're dead. The way I understood it is that the KD wins if he's alive and all the Forge members are dead. If he dies during the game, but the Forgers are also eliminated, then he doesn't lose. But doesn't win either.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The irrational side of me wants nothing more than to see you lynched, but the utiltarian in me says you're so remarkably useful it would be foolish to waste a dwarf of your talents.

THIS. If we only knew which side those talents are on...

Bom, I think I'm used to your weird joke-posting ways, but that "wolves - reveal!" was just plain silly.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Can anyone see anything wrong with this?

Nothing really. Except -

We are just as likely to lynch the wrong person. You might as well call it a reveal if we all agree that everyone except for the KD should do something/say something/ etc. If the KD realy stands out by acting suspicious on purpose, it amounts to the same thing. It's like, "ok, KD, we all step back and you make yourself look like a wolf, and then we know who you are". It's the revealing-without-actually-revealing scenario.

So we would have to find the KD based on "trying to look ordinary like everyone else" behaviour. And that brings us back to the classical WW game plan. We're just as likely to lynch a a notable ordo as the KD. Or get the Watchdwarf or sweetheart. Or fenris a wolf.

I'm not really sure if what I just said makes sense. It probably doesn't. I don't even remember what was my point when I started writing this. But anyways, I have nothing against that plan, except that maybe we should give equal attention to the wolves as the KD instead of focusing only on the latter.

Edit: xed with Eruhen, Pitch, and tp