“Thee” and “thou” in “The Lord of the Rings”

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I don't mind the additional discussion material at all, TM! Thanks for your research! I had originally limited mine to LotR, but your examples show the use of the familiar form in family-type circumstances - which has nothing to do with a simply archaic use of "thee" and "thou", as some might have expected in the Sil.

And you add more thought-provoking examples, Gal55 - I really enjoy having a discussion that expands the boundaries of my knowledge.

[The Might]

Actually Galadriel, he does in the Unfinished Tales:

She did not seek to comfort him any more than herself: for she met her grief in silence and coldness of heart. But Húrin mourned openly, and he took up his harp and would make a song of lamentation; but he could not, and he broke his harp, and going out he lifted up his hand towards the North, crying: "Marrer of Middle-earth, would that I might see thee face to face, and mar thee as my lord Fingolfin did!"

Also, interesting to note that both Turin and Gurthang(!) use "thee" in their short dialogue:

"Hail Gurthang, iron of death, thou alone now remainest! But what lord or loy*alty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee? From no blood wilt thou shrink! Wilt thou take Túrin Turambar? Wilt thou slay me swiftly?"
And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: "Yea, I will drink thy blood, that I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly."

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by The Might

Actually Galadriel, he does in the Unfinished Tales

Ah, I didn't have the sense to look up that passage... It's in COH as well...

Originally Posted by Miggy

Also, interesting to note that both Turin and Gurthang(!) use "thee" in their short dialogue:

Very interesting, that. Does it show that Gurthang is closer to Turin than his friends and family? Or, maybe that they "shared their death" is what makes them close? So if all humans are equal on the day of their death, swords are equal too?... But it's a special sword, with a personality of it's own, so I guess it's almost human in nature.

Originally Posted by Zil

Curiously, the Witch-king didn't use that language when he was face to face with Gandalf.

It's "do you', not "dost thou". Does that indicate the Witch-king either didn't see Gandalf as an inferior, or that he was afraid?

I think that it's a mixture of both. Or, maybe, his purpose was only to scare Gandalf, not to insult him - vainly, - as he knew it won't work on him. Eowyn is a different case altogether. The WK was offended and angered by her challenge. So insulting her would be a must.

[Mister Underhill]

Great thread, Esty, and great posts everybody. "Thee" as a familiar form is rattling around somewhere in my brain, but as an English-only speaker (alas), I guess the nuance of familiar versus formal forms never occurred to me while reading Tolkien. It's amazing how the prof can keep revealing new layers of nuance even after umpteen readings.

As I'm nearing the end of my first re-read of LotR in many a year, I'll throw in a couple more instances that are relatively fresh in my mind.

First, it seems that the familiar form is not completely forgotten in the Shire, as when Sam dredges his memory and comes up with the old troll tune, we find some examples:

Said Tom: 'I don't see why the likes o' thee
Without axin' leave should go makin' free
With the shank or the shin o' my father's kin;
So hand the old bone over!

The troll is likewise insultingly familiar in his response:

I'll eat thee too, and gnaw thy shins.

"Thee" also adds a layer of nuance (and an extra note of bittersweetness) to Treebeard's song, the call-and-response between the Ents and the Entwives, when it's introduced in the last stanzas.

And think how it must have warmed the cockles of Gimli's heart when he heard this message conveyed by Gandalf:

"To Gimli son of Glóin," she said, "give his Lady's greeting. Lock-bearer, wherever thou goest my thought goes with thee."

No wonder he capered!

[The Might]

By the way, perhaps interesting to note that - as expected - the Hobbit does not contain any form of "thee", "thou", "thy" or "thine" as Tolkien probably thought that children would have trouble understanding the language.

[The Might]

Also, letter #171 contains Tolkien's reply to someone criticizing his use of archaic English in TTT and describing this as "tushery". Worth reading his answer, well said, Professor!