“Thee” and “thou” in “The Lord of the Rings”

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As for another LOTR occurrence of the "superior" speech, there are the Witch-king's words to Éowyn:

Curiously, the Witch-king didn't use that language when he was face to face with Gandalf.

It's "do you', not "dost thou". Does that indicate the Witch-king either didn't see Gandalf as an inferior, or that he was afraid?

That's a fascinating comparison, Inzil! The W-K is definitely "talking down" to Éowyn, or rather Dernhelm at that point, considering "him" a foe far beneath himself. (At first I thought there was additional derision due to her gender, but it hadn't been revealed yet at that point. And come to think of it, the W-K's derision probably stopped when he learned that she was a woman, due to uncertainty and fear.) And I think your assessment of the situation between him and Gandalf is spot on - the Nazgûl Lord knew who the wizard was and realized that he was of a higher nature. I don't think the W-K was afraid, though - he seems to be too confident that his master's power is greater than that of Gandalf.

More interesting references, TM! The second one interests me especially - when both "persons" involved use the familiar form, it indicates equality, even a sense of brotherhood. There seems to be a connection on a deeper level between Turin and the sword. G55, you raise some very good questions concerning that! The closeness and the shared death are thought-provoking aspects.

Underhill, it's always a pleasure to have lured you back into posting! I'm finding it a great pleasure to discover new layers of understanding even after all these years of studying and rereading Tolkien. And yes! The Troll poem! It's another example of a mutual use of the familiar form, so I'm not sure there's an insult involved. It seems to me that two opponents are mockingly recognizing their equality - neither actually wins the encounter.

I hadn't realized that "thee" etc. are used in the Ent and Entwife's song, but you have a point there - it does add to the sense of loss when there was that closeness before.

And yes!! Galadriel's message to Gimli!! I hadn't thought of that, and it does add a very special intimacy to her words. I must have a thing for the more unusual love stories in Tolkien's tales, as I love this one dearly. What a triumph for the Dwarf - I wonder if she has addressed any other character with the familiar pronoun?! That calls for some more research...

Good point about the Hobbit, TM! If the Dwarves also used the familiar pronoun amongst themselves and to Bilbo and Gandalf, there was no need for differentiation anyway. And I bet Smaug didn't bother to address Mr. Baggins formally! So we could imagine that the "you" throughout the book was probably actually a "thee". Thanks also for the reference to that letter, which is interesting to read, even though it doesn't directly touch on our subject.

Thanks for all the great contributions so far! I'm very much enjoying this discussion.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

That's a fascinating comparison, Inzil! The W-K is definitely "talking down" to Éowyn, or rather Dernhelm at that point, considering "him" a foe far beneath himself. (At first I thought there was additional derision due to her gender, but it hadn't been revealed yet at that point. And come to think of it, the W-K's derision probably stopped when he learned that she was a woman, due to uncertainty and fear.) And I think your assessment of the situation between him and Gandalf is spot on - the Nazgûl Lord knew who the wizard was and realized that he was of a higher nature. I don't think the W-K was afraid, though - he seems to be too confident that his master's power is greater than that of Gandalf.

Another point, as far as I am concern, that he is "talking down" to Eowyn, the fact that he starts referring to himself in the third person, distancing himself. Note that, in his speech to Gandalf, he says "This is my Hour" but when he is talking to Eowyn he decied to do it in the third person removed. He says "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey" instead of "come not between me and my prey" "He will not slay", instead of "I will not slay". He makes an object lesson out of what should be a personal matter (Eowyn is keeping him from his kill, not every Nazgul from thier kill) Another point of "down talking" might be that "In thy turn" tag line. Given where she is standing, Eowyn's "turn" is as like as not next anyway, unless she decided to simply run away (Given the WK's nature, I can easily imagine that, had Eowyn betrayed her ideals and ran away in fear from the battle, The Nazgul might very well decided not to slay her at all, since the idea of her living her whole life in fear and disgrace would have probably amused him.) Adding on the "in thy turn" bit, in my opinion, that not only does he not feel any reservations about slaying her, but that she is of so little importance he does not even feel it neccecary to make any haste; she is such a little worm he can take his leisure.

[Faramir Jones]

The Might has already made reference to the above letter, part of which I think is well worth quoting. It's a letter written by Tolkien in about September 1955 but not sent, to Hugh Brogan, who criticised the archaisms in the LotR chapter 'The King of the Golden Hall', and agreed with a critic's description of it as 'tushery'. As has been pointed out, it's very relevant to this discussion; because in it Tolkien discusses his use of 'moderate or watered archaism', giving a particular passage in LotR, and showing what it would be like in a deliberatly archaic and then in modern English:

The proper use of 'tushery' is to apply it to the kind of bogus 'medieval' stuff which attempts (without knowledge) to give a supposed temporal colour with expletives, such as tush, pish, zounds, marry, and the like. But a real archaic English is far more terse than modern; also many of things said could not be said in our slack and often frivolous idiom. Of course, not being specially well read in modern English, and far more familiar with works in the ancient and 'middle' idioms, my own ear is to some extent affected; so that though I could easily recollect how a modern would put this or that, what comes easiest to mind or pen is not quite that. But take an example from the chapter that you specially singled out (and called terrible): Book iii, 'The King of the Golden Hall'. 'Nay, Gandalf!' said the King. 'You do not know your own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall in the front of the battle, if it must be. Thus shall I sleep better.'

This is a fair sample - moderate or watered archaism. Using only words that are still used or known to the educated, the King would really have said: 'Nay, thou (n')wost not thine own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall...' etc. I know well enough what a modern would say. 'Not at all my dear G. You don't know your own skill as a doctor. Things aren't going to be like that. I shall go to the war in person, even if I have to be one of the first casualties' - and then what? Theoden would certainly think, and probably say 'thus shall I sleep better'! But people who think like that just do not talk a modern idiom. You can have 'I shall lie easier in my grave', or 'I should sleep sounder in my grave like that rather than if I stayed at home' - if you like. But there would be an insincerity of thought, a disunion of word and meaning. For a King who spoke in a modern style would not really think in such terms at all, and any reference to sleeping quietly in the grave would be a deliberate archism of expression on his part (however worded) far more bogus than the actual 'archaic' English that I have used. Like some non-Christian making reference to some Christian belief which did not in fact move him at all. (Letters, Letter 171, pp. 225-6)

[Pitchwife]

You knew I would have to post on this sooner or later, didn't you, Esty? I can only echo Mr Underhill - great thread and great posts so far.

The use of thou & thee in the Troll song seems to me more dialectal than insulting, in accordance with the poem's folk song character - especially when you hear Tolkien himself sing it (a good recording is here).

I just remembered a smashing occurrence of thee & thou in the Silmarillion which is missing in Miggy's list - Fëanor to Melkor:

"Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!"

Everything here is a calculated insult - the use of the familiar pronoun, the epithet reminding Melkor of the worst humiliation he had suffered until then, the final act of slamming the door "in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä". (Which, incidentally, makes this a great thing to say to bailiffs, Jehovah's Witnesses and other visiting nuisances.)

Some remarks to usage in the German (Carroux) translation: the hobbits in the Shire mostly use du towards each other, but Frodo and Farmer Maggot address each other with Ihr (which may reflect uneasy feelings from the past on Frodo's side, whereas on Maggot's it may indicate that he now treats Frodo with the respect due to the Baggins of Bag-End), and the Fellowship hobbits use Ihr to the lords and ladies they meet on their journey, like Elrond, Galadriel, King Théoden and Denethor, but also to 'normal' people like Beregond - which goes quite against the grain of Tolkien's remark in Appendix F. Apparently Ms Carroux felt she had to deviate from Tolkien in this, because it would sound childish in German to say du to an unfamiliar adult.

Sam calls Frodo du, Herr Frodo, which is highly unusual in German, where only little children use du and the honorific Herr, Frau + surname together (as in du, Frau Steimel), until they have learned the correct polite forms - but here it nicely reflects the mixture of deference and intimacy.

Gandalf is addressed with du by Frodo and Bilbo, as befits a friend of the family, and by extension also by Merry and Pippin. To Sam, on the other hand, he is initially Ihr, Herr Gandalf; by the time they come to Moria, this has become du, Herr Gandalf (!), and at the end, on the Field of Cormallen, it's just du, Gandalf - showing nicely how the wizard changes in Sam's eyes from somebody both respected and feared to a companion who has become more familiar, but is still leader and guide, to a friend who is still respected but mostly loved.

[The Might]

Nice mention of the German translation, Pitch!
I've never read the books in German so it's new ground for me too.

I have to agree with the decision of avoiding using "du" and "Herr" together, it would definitely sound out of place.

[Pitchwife]

Er, Miggy, reread what I wrote. Ms Carroux doesn't avoid it, and somehow I agree with her, although it sounds weird. (I shudder to think what Krege may have done in the new translation.)

[Galadriel55]

That's interesting, Pitch. I really like the change with Gandalf. And that recording is just priceless!

In the Russian translation, Sam addresses most people defferentially. I believe (and I'm saying from memmory) that the only two people that he called by the familiar form were Hob Heyward and Gollum: the former as a friend and the latter by looking down on him. As hard as I try, I don't remember how he addressed Rosie. She addressed him in a familiar way for sure.

It seems to me, though, that Frodo was trying to convince Sam that he's not a servant but a friend to him. And Sam resisted believing that with all his might. I find it especially visible when Frodo speaks to Sam using familiar terms, and Sam replies defferentially.

Like in the German translation, Frodo addresses Maggot defferentially.

That Feanor quote is truly smashing! I wonder how he was still alive after that!

[Faramir Jones]

Pitchwife, I wanted to comment on what you had to say here:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Some remarks to usage in the German (Carroux) translation: the hobbits in the Shire mostly use du towards each other, but Frodo and Farmer Maggot address each other with Ihr (which may reflect uneasy feelings from the past on Frodo's side, whereas on Maggot's it may indicate that he now treats Frodo with the respect due to the Baggins of Bag-End), and the Fellowship hobbits use Ihr to the lords and ladies they meet on their journey, like Elrond, Galadriel, King Théoden and Denethor, but also to 'normal' people like Beregond - which goes quite against the grain of Tolkien's remark in Appendix F. Apparently Ms Carroux felt she had to deviate from Tolkien in this, because it would sound childish in German to say du to an unfamiliar adult.

To be fair about Pippin's use of Ihr to Beregond, he initially thought that the latter was of higher rank, and was only later told by him that he was just a 'plain man of arms'.

How does Beregond refer to Pippin in the translation? Is it in formal or intimate terms? I'm interested because though both are equal in rank, Pippin is higher in social position, being the son and heir of the Thain.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

To be fair about Pippin's use of Ihr to Beregond, he initially thought that the latter was of higher rank, and was only later told by him that he was just a 'plain man of arms'.

True.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

How does Beregond refer to Pippin in the translation? Is it in formal or intimate terms? I'm interested because though both are equal in rank, Pippin is higher in social position, being the son and heir of the Thain.

Beregond also uses the formal Ihr, although he uses du with the other guards in the kitchen. Can't remember whether he was aware of Pippin's social position back home (and don't have the book here to check), but I guess Pip being a companion of Mithrandir and a guest of the Steward would have been cause enough to show some respect, just to be on the safe side.

PS. - Thanks for the Napoleon letter! He could get quite irascible, couldn't he? But my favourite is the one he wrote to Josephine on his way home from a campaign, where he tells her "Don't wash yourself, I'm coming".

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I have a couple of additional examples for the use of "thou". In these cases, they are found in the context of poetry/song. Gildor's Elves sing:

Gilthoniel! O Elbereth!
Clear are they eyes and bright thy breath!
Snow-white! Snow-white! We sing to thee...

Later on, we read that the last lines of Galadriel's song translate:

Maybe thou shalt find Valimar.
Maybe even thou shalt find it.

Her poetic messages to Aragorn and Legolas were already mentioned, I think.

Does poetry use the familiar form for some special reason? I do know that in some languages (French, and sometimes English, for example), otherwise silent syllables are pronounced in poetry and song, illustrating the fact that the lyrical use of language can differ from normal conversation.

Or can the use of "thou" in singing to a goddess such as Varda be compared to the familiar use in prayer?

[morwen edhelwen]

Bit of thread drift; but, Estelyn, are you German by citizenship/nationality, or do you just live in Germany? As for the "thee" and 'thou", I always thought it was meant to signify, as you said:
1.authority(familiarity, I especially remember Shakespeare's use of it in Romeo and Juliet, from studying it in English class and other plays, as part of insults and in conversations between masters and servants. I think the idea here (but I am not an expert, just what I think) is, or was, that if "you in general" are in authority over another person, you can be 'familiar" in a way to them, as in the days when thou and thee were in common use, social circles were tight and the rich were (just assuming) more secure in the thought that their servants wouldn't reveal any of the masters' secrets.

People (in general) love to talk about others, especially if those others are seen as "better" in some way.

2. familiarity, between close friends and family members. I think Tolkien is using both senses(i haven't looked at the book in a long time as I don't know where my family's copy went)

[Elmo]

Andreth says to Finrod in the Athrabeth: "But say not thou to me, for so he once did!" Which implies she is not comfortable with the reminder of the closeness that she had to Aegnor which Finrod reminds her of, ( or she thought Finrod was patronising her!)

By the way, what a great piece of writing the Athrabeth is!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Morwen, I'm of German background, though not born in Germany nor a citizen, but I live here permanently. It's complicated...

Yes, you basically have the two main usages of "thee" and "thou", perhaps with the addition of the religious usage, which we find in passages of Tolkien's work as well.

Elmo, that's a great find! I haven't read the Athrabeth in quite a while, so I didn't remember that.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Another point, as far as I am concern, that he is "talking down" to Eowyn, the fact that he starts referring to himself in the third person, distancing himself.

That's a very interesting observation, Alfirin! It does add insult to injury, doesn't it?!

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

You knew I would have to post on this sooner or later, didn't you, Esty? I can only echo Mr Underhill - great thread and great posts so far.

Of course, Pitch! It's nice to see the (active) German members posting here, as we have daily experience of this linguistic usage. And thank you - I'm fascinated by the thoughts that have come up in the discussion, many of which hadn't occurred to me at all.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Sam calls Frodo du, Herr Frodo, which is highly unusual in German, where only little children use du and the honorific Herr, Frau + surname together (as in du, Frau Steimel), until they have learned the correct polite forms - but here it nicely reflects the mixture of deference and intimacy.

Now that really makes Sam sound like a first grader! I wasn't aware of that, not knowing the translation well.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Gandalf is addressed with du by Frodo and Bilbo, as befits a friend of the family, and by extension also by Merry and Pippin. To Sam, on the other hand, he is initially Ihr, Herr Gandalf; by the time they come to Moria, this has become du, Herr Gandalf (!), and at the end, on the Field of Cormallen, it's just du, Gandalf - showing nicely how the wizard changes in Sam's eyes from somebody both respected and feared to a companion who has become more familiar, but is still leader and guide, to a friend who is still respected but mostly loved.

Very interesting progression! And yes, I too am now curious as to what Krege did with the new translation - I may have to pick it up from the library to compare. I've attempted to avoid that till now!

Thanks to you too, G55, for sharing how the Russian translation handles the personal pronoun!

[The Might]

Pitch, I was talking about

and the Fellowship hobbits use Ihr to the lords and ladies they meet on their journey, like Elrond, Galadriel, King Théoden and Denethor, but also to 'normal' people like Beregond - which goes quite against the grain of Tolkien's remark in Appendix F. Apparently Ms Carroux felt she had to deviate from Tolkien in this, because it would sound childish in German to say du to an unfamiliar adult.

[Guinevere]

How could I have missed this great thread?! Yes, I know, it’s my own fault; I have been shamefully neglecting the Downs for much too long!

I found one more example of the use of "thou" in the LotR: Faramir, recalling his encounter with Boromir’s funeral boat :

"Boromir! Where is thy horn? Whither goest thou? O Boromir!"

This indicates the closeness of the brothers, and it has this archaic word order "Whither goest thou" (Old English seems to have been closer to German than modern English)

Before reading Tolkien, I had met these forms only in Shakespeare and the Bible. The quotations where thee and thou are used have a special impact on me, they always have the effect of "other time".

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

And yes, I too am now curious as to what Krege did with the new translation - I may have to pick it up from the library to compare. I've attempted to avoid that till now!

Since we have the new (Krege) translation in the house, I will go and see if and how it differs from the old one, using the examples Pitchwife mentioned.

[Guinevere]

In the Shire, Krege uses “Sie” instead of “Ihr”, which makes it sound more modern.
The hobbits mostly call each other „Du“, but then they mostly are friends or family. In the conversations in the „Ivybush“ a strange hobbit is addressed as „Sie“. The gaffer calls the miller „du, Sandigmann“ (but without „Herr“!)

The Sackville-Bagginses call Merry and Frodo „Sie“ („Sie sind kein Beutlin- Sie… Sie sind ein Brandybock!“) (in the old translation it’s “Du”)

Sam calls Frodo „Du“ and “Herr Frodo”, and sometimes “Du,Chef!” (Grrrr!) Gandalf he addresses in the beginning „Sie, Herr Gandalf“, later „Du, Herr Gandalf“, and finally Du Gandalf.

Farmer Maggot calls Frodo „Du, Herr Frodo“, but the Nazgul he tells „Verschwinden Sie!“
Mr Butterbur also calls the hobbits „Sie“ (and vice versa)

Strider and the hobbits also call each other „Sie“ until his declaration that he is Aragorn, and will give his live to save them. Thereafter they call each other Du. (in the old translation “Ihr” changes to “Du” a bit later, on the way to weathertop.)

In the Council of Elrond, Frodo calls Elrond “Du” (.Everyone is called „Du“, as far as I can see.. (Du, Meister Elrond)
Aragorn and Boromir call each other “Du” from the start. (In the Carroux translation it’s “Ihr”.) Even Sam says“Du“ to Elrond (“Aber du willst ihn doch nicht etwa allein losschicken, Meister?”)!!

Galadriel is called „Du“ by Frodo and also by Sam! ("Ihr" in the old translation)

Eomer and Aragorn say “Du” to each other. (In the old translation: "ihr")
But Théoden, as befits a king of old, is called “Ihr” by Gandalf, Eomer and everyone. (Also by Merry) (Théoden, on the other hand, calls Gandalf “Du”) (In the old translation Théoden calls Gandalf "Ihr")

At the first meeting with Faramir, Sam calls him “Sie”(!), and Frodo “Ihr”, but not for long. After the episode with the Mumak, both call him “Du” (and vice versa). (Old transl: both Frodo and Sam call Faramir "Ihr", Faramir calls Frodo "Ihr", but Sam "Du")

Gandalf calls Denethor “Ihr”, Denethor calls him “Du, Mithrandir”, but Pippin says “Sie” to Denethor (!) and he also says ”Sie” to Beregond, but only initially, after their snack on the walls, they have become friends and call each other “Du”. (Old translation: Gandalf and Pippin call Denethor "Ihr", Denethor calls Gandalf "Ihr" and Pippin "Du". Pippin and Beregond call each other "Ihr" the whole time.)

Aragorn and Eowyn call each other “Du” right from the start! So here there is no difference and hence no special significance of the passages where in the original “Thou” is used. (old translation:"Ihr", but "Du" in the passages where "Thou" is used)

Faramir and Eowyn also call each other “Du” right from the start. (old transation: "Ihr" the whole time)

[Galadriel55]

Guinevere, I can't rep you again yet, but such a detailed review deserves a note! Thanks for posting the differences!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What G55 said - thanks for all that research, Guinevere!