Silmarillion - Chapter 21 - Of Túrin Turambar

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This long chapter tells the complete story of a character whose tale is both heroic and tragic. Túrin is admired by many readers for his prowess and bravery, yet his fate is often debated - how much of it is due to Morgoth's curse, how much brought upon himself by his own pride and injustice?

A brief summary of the story is hardly possible to write - it's so convoluted and complicated. Therefore I will just bring up several questions that occurred to me while reading the chapter to begin the discussion, assuming that most who post here are familiar with the events.

Does anyone care to make a list of all the names Túrin assumes in the course of his life?!

Tolkien puts words concerning mixed Elven-Human marriage into Gwindor's mouth, stressing how unique such an event is, and that a special purpose is necessary. Do you think Finduilas' love could have influenced Túrin positively, or would a relationship between them not have been allowed to happen under those circumstances?

At which point(s) in the story do you think Túrin's fate could have turned? Could he have escaped the doom that was his fate?


Other sources for this story can be found in The Lays of Beleriand and The Children of Húrin. How do the various accounts differ? What remains the same? Though we are mainly discussing the Silmarillion version, there is certainly room for comparisons.

[Inziladun]

Count me in with the people who don't have a great deal of sympathy for Túrin.

Granted, he was under the curse of a "fallen angel", the most powerful being in Middle-earth, and Morgoth had made it a special project to cause as much ruin to the House of Hador as he could.

Still, Túrin could have at many points turned aside from the path Morgoth had laid in front of him, and at least minimised the effects of the curse.

Where were the turning points, where Túrin's choices made Morgoth's work easy?

1. In Doriath, after the death of Saeros. Pride kept Túrin from returning to Menegroth and submitting to Thingol's judgement. Obviously, had Túrin stayed he would have been pardoned quickly, and Morwen and Nienor would have had no need to later search for him in the wild.

2. When found by Beleg and advised of his pardon by Thingol, Túrin again allowed pride to master him and refused to return.

3. In Nargothrond, if Túrin had kept to the stealthy means of battle favoured by Orodreth, the Eldar there might not have been revealed to Morgoth, or at least they could have endured longer. Even a warning from messengers of Ulmo was not enough to sway him. Had Nargothrond not fallen, Finduilas would not have died. More importantly, Túrin would not have been exposed to the power of Glaurung, which caused him to go to Dor-lómin, leading Morwen and Nienor to leave the safety of Doriath to look for him.

4. Túrin's taking up Gurthang in Brethil instead of generic weaponry that would not draw attention to him was, I think, the reason Glaurung himself decided to go to Brethil. This put him, and Nienor back in Glaurung's path and led to the suicide of both. One might be tempted to say that the death of Nienor was a mercy, if only for her own peace of mind. After it, instead of literally "slaying the messenger" who told him of Nienor's death, Brandir, Túrin possibly could have found it in himself to devote his life to righting wrongs, both those he himself had caused, and those he had no part in. Would that not have been a better penance than simply killing himself and giving Morgoth his full triumph? After all, had Túrin still been alive, would his father have ever seen the need to insult Thingol by giving him the Nauglamír? It was that necklace which brought to Menegroth the Dwarves who ultimately killed Thingol.

So many places where Túrin could have turned away and made the curse more problematic for Morgoth, and yet he played right into Morgoth's hands. That, to me, is the real tragedy of the story.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Count me in with the people who don't have a great deal of sympathy for Túrin.

Count me out.

He is like a noble version of Gollum. We pity that wretched creature, with Slinker pulling on one side of his mind and Stinker on another. But Turin is, in a way, quite similar. He doesn't wear a loincloth and isn't skin-and-bones and doesn't feed on raw fishes. And he doesn't have the Ring gnawing at him. But he has other things, like the curse. And the greatest similarity is how they both carry guilt in their concience; they remember things that they are trying to forget.

[Edit to clarify: It's easy to judge Gollum by his appearance, and decide on either "wretched" or "disgusting", or both. It is harder to understand, and judge, him by what goes on in his mind. There's a Gollum and a Smeagol playing tug-of-war with his being. In Turin's case, he has so many more factors doing multy-way tug-of-war, which makes it so much more bitter for him to - once again - have chosen the wrong string.]

Túrin possibly could have found it in himself to devote his life to righting wrongs, both those he himself had caused, and those he had no part in. Would that not have been a better penance than simply killing himself and giving Morgoth his full triumph?

Ah, but he tried that, didn't he? He was trying to be as much of a threat to Morgoth as he could, and he tried to "make it right this time". But he always failed, time and again, whether it was by power of the curse or his own actions. I think that when he died, everyone was relieved. He said himself that he casts a shadow wherever he goes, but, sadly, his solution is not to distance himself from others to avoid helping Morgoth, but rather to assume a fake identity.

And that made me think of an interesting thing. In Nargothrond and in Brethil the people knew who he really was, but they kept quiet about it. Was it just because they respected Turin, or maybe were afraid of his anger?

So many places where Túrin could have turned away and made the curse more problematic for Morgoth, and yet he played right into Morgoth's hands. That, to me, is the real tragedy of the story.

Maybe tragedy, but I think irony fits better. The story is full of it. Both dramatic and situational irony.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

He is like a noble version of Gollum. We pity that wretched creature, with Slinker pulling on one side of his mind and Stinker on another. But Turin is, in a way, quite similar. He doesn't wear a loincloth and isn't skin-and-bones and doesn't feed on raw fishes. And he doesn't have the Ring gnawing at him. But he has other things, like the curse. And the greatest similarity is how they both carry guilt in their concience; they remember things that they are trying to forget.

There is a closer similarity between the two, I think, in that both made the choices they did because of innate characteristics. The Ring called to Gollum so acutely because it recognised in him a kindred spirit. Gollum's basic personality was against him, but that doesn't absolve him of responsibility for his own choices, such as killing Déagol so easily.

Likewise, Túrin being so much like his mother personality-wise probably made things harder for him, but still one would think that with all the advantages he had, such as the fostering in Doriath and having the benefit the wisdom of Thingol and Melian, he could have learned some patience or humility.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Ah, but he tried that, didn't he? He was trying to be as much of a threat to Morgoth as he could, and he tried to "make it right this time". But he always failed, time and again, whether it was by power of the curse or his own actions. I think that when he died, everyone was relieved. He said himself that he casts a shadow wherever he goes, but, sadly, his solution is not to distance himself from others to avoid helping Morgoth, but rather to assume a fake identity.

Yet even when he hid the name of Túrin, he clung to Gurthang, the one item which above all others would identify him. Why? Was it an internal rebellion against hiding his true identity? Was he too proud to let go of his past life completely, though he was also too proud to return to Doriath where he could openly be the son of Húrin Thalion?

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And that made me think of an interesting thing. In Nargothrond and in Brethil the people knew who he really was, but they kept quiet about it. Was it just because they respected Turin, or maybe were afraid of his anger?

Probably both, in Nargothrond. With Brethil, it was likely more of a courtesy.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Yet even when he hid the name of Túrin, he clung to Gurthang, the one item which above all others would identify him. Why? Was it an internal rebellion against hiding his true identity? Was he too proud to let go of his past life completely, though he was also too proud to return to Doriath where he could openly be the son of Húrin Thalion?

Well, he could definitely use some humility. But there are other answers as well. Turin - always, and blindly - preffered brute strength to secrecy. Why cast away the strongest weapon he has, in return for being yet another homeless vagabond? It didn't make sense to him. And whenever he tries doing exactly that, he still rises to the top of society - among the Outlaws, in Nargothrond, and at Brethil, he tries to blend in with the crowd, but his pride, ambition, thirst to avenge himself and his family etc (you name it) always brings him to a visible spot.

The funny thing is that as treacherous as that sword is, it proved to be the most "loyal" of Turin's possessions, and the closest one to him. (this was mentioned in this thread, posts #32, #33, and #37). To summarise: they use "thee" and "thou" in their final dialogue. These are familiar pronouns. They underline the deeper connection Turin has with the sword and their brotherhood. They are also connected by their shared death.

The whole issue with pride also brings the question of how Turin felt when he sneaked up to Glaurung to stab him. I can see him saying one thing to himself over and over again: kill Glaurung at any cost! And that cost was pride. He did not come up openly to the dragon and challenge him to a duel. Did he learn that in open combat he has no chance? But that's his honour, his pride! In my opinion, giving up those virtues for the sake of victory was a bigger deal for him than a scorched hand.

How true then are Glaurung's words, then?

"And now thou shalt know him: a stabber in the dark, treacherous to foes, faithless to friends, and a curse unto his kin, Turin son of Hurin!"

Well, of course they are true, but what I mean is how much does Glaurung really slander Turin? All he did is take the consequences without taking all the build-up into account. It's easy to agree with Glaurung, and well, he's right. But he, like always, adds a bit of lie to the truth to serve his purpose. Or, rather, adds a bit of truth to the lie. He only says why Turin was wrong in doing what he did. He does not give the "other options", so to speak.

Also, Glaurung seems to be a physical representation of the Curse. Not only does he choose Hin Hurin out of all the inhabitants of Beleriand to pursue, but also how he twists the truth into half-lies. Morgoth "showed" Hurin a tampered version of what happened to his family. And Glaurung gives "tampered truths"... if that makes ny sense.


I never said that Turin's actions are necessarily right, of the best choices. But I am still sympathetic towards him.


I forgot to put "Wildman of the Woods" in my list of names, I'll edit it in.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

So many places where Túrin could have turned away and made the curse more problematic for Morgoth, and yet he played right into Morgoth's hands. That, to me, is the real tragedy of the story.

Isn't that sort of how tragedies normally work in literature, though? Although the "fatal flaw" way of describing Hamlet or Macbeth is too much of an oversimplification, nonetheless it is clearly their own actions that lead up to their fall, a fall that was not unavoidable. Rather, it is a clear series of choices that lead to the tragedy. To take Macbeth as an example (if only because it is fresher in my mind), the witches certainly manipulate him, but he chooses to kill Duncan, chooses to kill Banquo, and chooses to kill Macduff's family. He is led to each of these conclusions only in part by the words of the witches--the interpretation all comes from him.

In like manner, Túrin chooses each of the actions that makes the curse more operative, rather than less, and the tragedy of the Narn is precisely that Morgoth's curse worked hand-in-hand with Túrin's own actions.

Like Galadriel55, this does not make me lose all sympathy for Túrin--if anything, I sympathize with him more because of it, because his repeated failures are what bring him down to a sympathetic level. Túrin without his drastic miscalculations would leave us with Boromir as he seemed at the Council of Elrond: brash, over-confident, full of himself--but even more so. Túrin is dislikable because of his successes: he is the greatest warrior, a convincing leader, a charismatic figure about to make whole nations change their polices. If Túrin were successful in these endeavours, he would be insufferable; the fact that his choices are so wrong (despite what we know are fairly noble, if over-proud, intentions) is what makes him a tragic figure.

Mind you, although I find him sympathetic, I would not go so far as to say that I "like" the guy.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by G55

But I think the biggest "if" of all is, "if Turin could understand his own heart and the hearts of others..."

This! (I wish I could rep you for your first two posts on this thread - that's a lot of great insights there, but this is the best.)

Originally Posted by G55

He said himself that he casts a shadow wherever he goes, but, sadly, his solution is not to distance himself from others to avoid helping Morgoth, but rather to assume a fake identity.

I'm actually not sure distancing himself from others would have been a solution - I rather think he distanced himself from others too much for his own good (not spatially but emotionally). I've always found that verse in the Lay of the Children of Húrin that speaks of "the sundering sorrow that seared his youth" very touching, and in a way it sums up his whole character for me.

We see in the Narn that as a child he was capable of caring for others (as in his relationship with Sador), and of course he loved his family, especially his sister Lalaith. But then he lost first her, then his father, and finally his mother when she sent him to Doriath, and it seems to me that he never recovered from this series of traumatic losses - like he was hurt so much that he never let anybody get as close to him again for fear of losing them too and being hurt again. He didn't even remember Nellas when Beleg mentioned her to him a few years later (a remarkable case of amnesia that has been discussed in its own thread). He was friends with Beleg and later Gwindor, and he seems to have loved Finduilas in a way, but his adult relationships with others never went so far that he would have let them question him or tried to look at himself through their eyes. His family (or rather his idealized memories of them) always mattered more to him than anybody else, and it may not be that much of an exaggeration to say they were the only people who really mattered to him - as seen in his decision to go searching for Morwen and Nienor instead of trying to save Finduilas, as Gwindor had bidden him.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

He was friends with Beleg and later Gwindor, and he seems to have loved Finduilas in a way, but his adult relationships with others never went so far that he would have let them question him or tried to look at himself through their eyes.

Maybe he loved Findilas - and not any other woman - because she reminded him of his family. They have this conversation in the Narn:

"I had a sister, Lalaith, or so I named her; and of her you put me in mind. But Lalaith was a child, a yellow flower in the green grass of spring; and had she lived she wold now, maybe, have become dimmed with grief. But you are queenly, and as a golden tree; I would I had a sister so fair."

"But you are kingly," said she, "even as the lords of the peopls of Fingolfin; I would I had a brother so valiant."

Turin's love for Finduilas can almost be described as nostalgic.

And the only other woman that ot his attention in adulthood was his own sister. Though neither knew that. But it is mentioned a number of times that something was special about the two of them (like, only Nienor could pursuade Turin to stay at home and not fight, and she felt glad only in his company).

I'm actually not sure distancing himself from others would have been a solution - I rather think he distanced himself from others too much for his own good (not spatially but emotionally).

Good point.

His family (or rather his idealized memories of them) always mattered more to him than anybody else, and it may not be that much of an exaggeration to say they were the only people who really mattered to him - as seen in his decision to go searching for Morwen and Nienor instead of trying to save Finduilas, as Gwindor had bidden him.

Well, that was part dragon work, but if he loved Finduilas more than his family, I think he would still save her. So his family comes first.

Also (I think there was a thread about it, but I can't remember), Beleg says that Turin "lived always with [his] heart and half [his] mind far away". That could very well mean that Turin lived in a world of his idealised family and a childhood that he never had.

Edit: xed with Zil and Squatter

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

The story of Túrin is one of the key legends around which the Silmarillion is constructed, so I can't hope to do justice to it in the time I have at my disposal. Fortunately rather a lot of what I have to say is redundant, since Tom Shippey has already dealt with it in The Road to Middle Earth. I don't see any reason to argue with his main argument that Túrin's story is one of tension between the meanings of 'doom' as judgement and as ill fate. In the story of the Children of Húrin more than anywhere else in the matter of Middle Earth, Tolkien is exploring the balance between fate and free will as they were addressed in the early and high middle ages. Beowulf tells Unferth:

Wyrd oft nereð
unfægne eorl, þonne his ellen deah.

Fate often spares
an undoomed lord, when his courage avails

Gisli's Saga sums up its protagonist by extolling his virtues and wryly cursing his luck.

Lýkur þar nú ævi Gísla og er það alsagt að hann hefur hinn mesti hreystimaður verið þó að hann væri eigi í öllum hlutum gæfumaður.

There now ends Gisli's life, and it has always been said he was the greatest champion - though he was not lucky in all things.

Leaving aside the heroic, Boethius addresses the relationship between divine foreknowledge and predestination, and Alfred the Great expands on the idea in his translation of De Consolatione Philosophiae by adding his own metaphor of a wagon wheel.

These are only three rather obvious examples. Old English and Old Norse writings are full of references to fate, luck and doom; just as Christian works often address the apparent contradiction that God can know what will happen despite each person's freedom to choose any path. When Tolkien approached the same issue it gave rise to his starkest and most brutal story, and the closest of any of his legends to the pagan North.

Much of what Túrin suffers is his own fault. His own pride, inherited from the equally pig-headed Morwen leads him repeatedly to choose the worst course of action in the face of good advice, and the chief points at which he does this have been pointed out. In constant tension with this theme, however, there is a persistent bad luck that causes every stroke he makes to turn awry. What causes Saeros to taunt Túrin with exactly the image most likely to enrage him? Why does Saeros fall into a chasm instead of escaping or tripping over? Why does one of Túrin's men decide to shoot at Mîm's sons? What causes Beleg's knife to slip? Why is it that Túrin meets with Níenor of all places at Haudh-en-Elleth? At times, the litany of evil coincidence comes very close to malign fate, just as Gisli's ill luck dooms him in spite of his accomplishments. To his great credit, Tolkien never gives us a straight answer to the central question: does Morgoth's curse destroy Húrin's family or do they destroy themselves? Typically the closest he comes to a conclusion on the subject is in Gwindor's comment on the nature of names: "The doom lies in yourself, not in your name". However, it is worth noting that whenever his opponents play into Morgoth's hands it is when their behaviour is most like his own.

Another interesting point is that despite his many failures, Túrin remains a hero. At several stages in the development of this story Tolkien foresaw a revenge for him at the last battle, and he is still one of "the mighty Elf-friends of old" to Elrond in LR. Although by far the darkest of Tolkien's heroes, he never becomes as corrupt as does Fëanor; and ultimately he succeeds in his mother's ambition for him: he is never a slave.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

...pig-headed Morwen...

I hope you meant big-headed Morwen...

Another interesting point is that despite his many failures, Túrin remains a hero.

Heroes aren't necessarily successful. But they still may be heroes.

And that reminds me. At one point, I believe when Turin was ruling at Amon Rudh, Morgoth was afraid that he will overpower the curse. This might have been the most successful time in his life.

But it brings up a question: did Morgoth have faith in his own curses?

Although by far the darkest of Tolkien's heroes, he never becomes as corrupt as does Fëanor; and ultimately he succeeds in his mother's ambition for him: he is never a slave.

He "fares free". Now that you mention that, I think that there is a deeper meaning behind those words.

I think we can equal Turin and Feanor in this sense: they are both, in a way, legendary. And I think that Feanor is more fey than corrupt - as is Turin.


I sometimes wonder why Turin calls himself Turambar in Brethil. Does he wish to defy his fate? Does he think that he rose above it? I used to think that this particular name choice was made on purpose by Tolkien to create the irony of "Master of Doom, by Doom mastered".

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I hope you meant big-headed Morwen...

Well, I hardly feel qualified to speak on the masterful Squatter's behalf, but my own bias leads me to conclude that he could only have possibly meant "pig-headed" (as in "stubborn, pig-headed, Morwen")--although "big-headed" isn't implausible, I suppose.

Actually, it's funny... I think I feel about Morwen the way Inzil feels about Túrin--and the reason it's funny is because Tolkien is essentially doing the same thing with both characters: both are over-proud, both are stubborn to the point of refusing advice the reader KNOWS they ought to take, and both are ultimately sympathetic characters in their tragedy.

But for whatever reason, Morwen bothers me more than Túrin--maybe it's because Túrin is a child when this ill-fortune starts, whereas Morwen was a grown woman--though that might not be fair of me. After all, Morwen had to flee HER homeland as a child, when the Bragollach drove the refugees of the House of Bëor into Dor-Lómin, and she also lost her father in the war to Morgoth, one of the band of Barahir.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

In like manner, Túrin chooses each of the actions that makes the curse more operative, rather than less, and the tragedy of the Narn is precisely that Morgoth's curse worked hand-in-hand with Túrin's own actions.

Indeed. Yet, my point is that it needn't have been so.

Anyone can make mistakes, of course, in Tolkien's Arda as well as this world.
Túrin's problem, though, is that he continually makes the same sort of mistakes time and time again. It is that which makes me so unsympathetic toward him.

Also, one can point to his personality as an impediment (as I already did), and make the case that his lot was harder because of that. I take it as a basic tenant, however, that Eru Ilúvatar would not have allowed his Children to have been oppressed by Morgoth beyond their ability to endure. Túrin had the capability to overcome both the curse, and the demons within himself, he just doesn't seem willing to try.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Like Galadriel55, this does not make me lose all sympathy for Túrin--if anything, I sympathize with him more because of it, because his repeated failures are what bring him down to a sympathetic level. Túrin without his drastic miscalculations would leave us with Boromir as he seemed at the Council of Elrond: brash, over-confident, full of himself--but even more so. Túrin is dislikable because of his successes: he is the greatest warrior, a convincing leader, a charismatic figure about to make whole nations change their polices. If Túrin were successful in these endeavours, he would be insufferable; the fact that his choices are so wrong (despite what we know are fairly noble, if over-proud, intentions) is what makes him a tragic figure.

Like I said, it would be another matter if Túrin had kept on failing for different reasons, and things which were outside his control. I just don't see that as being the case though.

x/d with Squatter

[Galadriel55]

First of all, this is one of my favourite chapters, though it is quite complicated and messy. When I first read it, I was so sick and tired of all the curses that I did not read COH until about a month later. But later on I came to really like Turin's story. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's the mix of irony and tragedy that appeals to me.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Does anyone care to make a list of all the names Túrin assumes in the course of his life?!

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have the books in my hand to check, and there might be some names from COH that don't appear in The Sil...

Turin
Neithan
Gorthol
Agarwaen son of Umarth
Adanedhel (Given by Elves of Nargothrond)
Mormegil (Given by Elves of Nargothrond)
Thurin (Given by Finduilas)
Wildman of the Woods
Turambar
Dagnir Glaurunga (this one was given to him after his death)

Do you think Finduilas' love could have influenced Túrin positively, or would a relationship between them not have been allowed to happen under those circumstances?

I think that before we get to the "woud it have been allowed by fate" question, we should consider if it was actually possible on a more simple level. Turin loved Finduilas in a peculiar way. On one hand, they were lovers. On the other hand, he saw her as a mother and a queen (paraphrasing a quote here). It is a bit of an awkward relationship. I think that sometimes she reminded him of Nellas (though he didn't realise it), bringing nostalgic feelings.

At which point(s) in the story do you think Túrin's fate could have turned? Could he have escaped the doom that was his fate?

I think that he was given many "chances", but for one reason or another he did not take them. Yet, maybe, those chances were also illusions, and the curse would have turned them into yet worse choices.

If Morwen dropped her pride and came to Doriath right away, if Turin stayed there, if he would listen to Beleg, if he didn't give away Nargothrond's secrecy, if he would listen to Cirdan's messengers, if he didn't listen to Glaurung, if he saved Finduilas instead of going home, if he wasn't so aggressive in Brodda's house as to kill his friends and kin, if he went to Doriath right after, if Morwen and Nienor stayed in Doriath, if Nienor didn't come up that hill, if Turin recognised his sister, if he didn't subcontiously take over Brandir's role, if, if, if...

Wow, that is one long sentence. And a long list that is *still* incomplete.

But I think the biggest "if" of all is, "if Turin could understand his own heart and the hearts of others..." Quite a lot of his troubles come because he has no clue what is going on. Like his fight with Saeros and refusal to stay in / go back to Doriath. Like he didn't see how Mim - who was once very fond of him - and Beleg did not go together. Like the love triangle in Nargothrond. Like he brought trouble on his kin in Dor-Lomin. Like the whole thing with Brandir.

As either Gelmir or Arminas said, he takes councel with himself and his sword only. He doesn't listen to advice. He puts faith blindly in his own strength and skills. Sometimes it seems as though he is obsessed with something and purposely ignorant of everything else.

Other sources for this story can be found in The Lays of Beleriand and The Children of Húrin. How do the various accounts differ? What remains the same? Though we are mainly discussing the Silmarillion version, there is certainly room for comparisons.

The difference between The Sil and COH that I always noticed is Mim's betrayal. In The Sil he is captured by orcs who force him to give away the location where Turin is abiding. In COH, Mim leaves Amon Rudh under the pretence of gathering roots but searches for the orcs. I somehow favour the Sil version. Mim is not really evil. He never really wanted to do evil; he wanted revenge.

Mim is a very curious character. He is more than a bit mysterious and unpredictable. Sometimes there are sparks of nobility and pride in him, but at other times he is just a miserable greedy coward, valuing his neck above all others, and giving heed to no virtues. The first time we see this is when he hands over Bar-en-Danwedh over to Turin's men. In this case he is pressured by his own captivity, and Khim's wound, but the idea stays the same. The second time is when he betrays Bar-en-Danwedh to the orcs. And the third - when upon meeting Hurin he begs him to take all the treasures of Nargothrond and save his life.

Taking the first example from above, the fathers that we see - Hurin and Mim - are like each other's antipodes. When they are captured and their families are threatened, Hurin is proud, defiant, and in a way open, even in front of Morgoth. Mim is sneaky, begging, hiding. He was offended when the Outlaws bound him (at least in COH); Hurin wasn't exactly offended, he merely laughed and mocked Morgoth. Which showed more pride? Mim' pride certainly was less high than Hurin's. And it was for lower causes.

I'm not sure what to make of that father-contrast. It just is.

Edit: xed with Zil.