Occupy Formenos!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The Enc. of Arda also sys something I found interesting:

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/f/flameimperishable.html

Setting aside my curmudgeonly wariness of citing online sources instead of their primary texts antecedents, the question, Galadriel55 is *why* this quote interests you. Insofar as it's not Tolkien's own words you're quoting, it would be far more interesting (to me, at least) to know why *you* find this articulation interesting.

*coughs*

Anyway, beyond that pseudo-intrusion of my budding professorial life into my Downs habits, I wonder if the answer to Alatar's question isn't ultimately rather simple: Melkor didn't actually create anything.

After all, what we know from the first of these quotes that Melkor had the greatest power and a share in all the gifts of his brethren; we do not know that he ever used them. It seems quite possible to me that Melkor's power was in terms of potential*. We know (from the various essays in Morgoth's Ring, mostly) that Melkor squandered his power by infusing it into the very matter of Arda, in an attempt to subdue it to his will (hence the term "Morgoth's Ring," since this infusion of power is echoed in Sauron's later, more focused, action with the Ring).

What could Melkor have done if he had not gone bad? What if he had used his power like Aulë, Yavanna, or Varda instead of pouring it into the stuff of the earth--not to shape it and build it up (in its own right, one might say), but to dominate it? We don't know. After all, Melkor's fall takes place before Eä is even
spoken into being, so it seems fair to assume that he began very early to attempt to subdue matter itself to his will--and it is clear from the Morgoth's Ring essays that subduing matter in this way meant, in the long run, simple annihilation of any form or shaping given to it. Indeed, already near the very beginning of history we see Melkor's actions aimed at simple destruction: the ruin of Almaren and the overthrow of the Lamps. If there was ever a "creative" and not wholly destructive time during Melkor's existence in Arda, it must have been very early indeed.

After all, even when we see him "twisting" the creations of others--the Orks being the prime example, whatever origin story we select--his twisting is always a step on the road to annihilation.



*If it helps anyone, I'm thinking in terms of Aristotelian potentiality and actuality, but I'm not really pursuing that rigidly... it's just where I'm coming from tonight.

X-posted with Alatar

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Setting aside my curmudgeonly wariness of citing online sources instead of their primary texts antecedents, the question, Galadriel55 is *why* this quote interests you. Insofar as it's not Tolkien's own words you're quoting, it would be far more interesting (to me, at least) to know why *you* find this articulation interesting.

*coughs*

It was a different explanation of why Morgoth could only twist existing beings. I was not citing it as the ultimate truth, just as another person's opinion that varied from mine.

Melkor didn't actually create anything.

Wasn't that what I said in my previous post?...

After all, what we know from the first of these quotes that Melkor had the greatest power and a share in all the gifts of his brethren; we do not know that he ever used them.

See above.

X-posted with Alatar

?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Wasn't that what I said in my previous post?...

Well, I wasn't disagreeing with you, so that would make sense.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

?

It's entirely possible that I imagined the whole thing... but I could swear that Alatar posted right after I did...