Occupy Formenos!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by alatar

My point is that Melkor had gifts like no other being, and yet instead of making something of it, he chose to covet others' works.

He once had those gifts. By the time the Elves awoke I'm pretty sure he lost them.

Melkor raised up his own theme in the Music; why could he have made his own 'world' on Arda that was completely his own, then invite some of the Children in to live with him? Wouldn't that show up those Valinoreans?!?

First of all, it would still would not be truly his. The Children are their own. They are given free will (though I'd prefer not to start a debate on this topic!) and do not "belong" to any Ainu, much less to Morgoth who has done everything to prevent them from living happily.

Secondly, he is not like the Valar, trying to persuade the Children to come to a nice place where they would live happily ever after. He wants absolute power. He does not want to wait for someone to say "look at his ugly wasteland! I wanna live there!".

On the other hand, I guess that he *did*, but was envious, as though Utumno was exactly as he wanted it, he still yearned for the light.

Again, it's true to some extent. But you can argue that the soil/metal/whatnot that it was made of belonged to Aule, not Morgoth. He only used the "ready products", just as he used the corrupted Free Peoples. He cannot create. We learn that only harmony, goodness, and hard work can give you anything that is "your very own". Morgoth wanted ALL, NOW, BETTER THAN OTHERS', and he took the "easy way out". Instead of making his creation by the same method as the Valar he decided to grab it. And failed. And then he was too deep into his* creation: evil.

*Though I think that even that is not really a creation. If there is anything good, there has to be something bad. The moment there is harmony, there is a chance for discord. As soon as someone says a word there is a possibility for both a truth and a lie. So really it depends on how you look at it. I think that "concepts" are always there, even before anyone uses them.


The Enc. of Arda also sys something I found interesting:

Melkor was always jealous of the power of the Flame Imperishable, and desired it for himself, but it remained beyond his reach. For this reason, he was unable to create beings of his own, and so his armies were therefore filled with beings he had twisted or corrupted to his own ends.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/f/flameimperishable.html

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The Enc. of Arda also sys something I found interesting:

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/f/flameimperishable.html

Setting aside my curmudgeonly wariness of citing online sources instead of their primary texts antecedents, the question, Galadriel55 is *why* this quote interests you. Insofar as it's not Tolkien's own words you're quoting, it would be far more interesting (to me, at least) to know why *you* find this articulation interesting.

*coughs*

Anyway, beyond that pseudo-intrusion of my budding professorial life into my Downs habits, I wonder if the answer to Alatar's question isn't ultimately rather simple: Melkor didn't actually create anything.

After all, what we know from the first of these quotes that Melkor had the greatest power and a share in all the gifts of his brethren; we do not know that he ever used them. It seems quite possible to me that Melkor's power was in terms of potential*. We know (from the various essays in Morgoth's Ring, mostly) that Melkor squandered his power by infusing it into the very matter of Arda, in an attempt to subdue it to his will (hence the term "Morgoth's Ring," since this infusion of power is echoed in Sauron's later, more focused, action with the Ring).

What could Melkor have done if he had not gone bad? What if he had used his power like Aulë, Yavanna, or Varda instead of pouring it into the stuff of the earth--not to shape it and build it up (in its own right, one might say), but to dominate it? We don't know. After all, Melkor's fall takes place before Eä is even
spoken into being, so it seems fair to assume that he began very early to attempt to subdue matter itself to his will--and it is clear from the Morgoth's Ring essays that subduing matter in this way meant, in the long run, simple annihilation of any form or shaping given to it. Indeed, already near the very beginning of history we see Melkor's actions aimed at simple destruction: the ruin of Almaren and the overthrow of the Lamps. If there was ever a "creative" and not wholly destructive time during Melkor's existence in Arda, it must have been very early indeed.

After all, even when we see him "twisting" the creations of others--the Orks being the prime example, whatever origin story we select--his twisting is always a step on the road to annihilation.



*If it helps anyone, I'm thinking in terms of Aristotelian potentiality and actuality, but I'm not really pursuing that rigidly... it's just where I'm coming from tonight.

X-posted with Alatar

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Setting aside my curmudgeonly wariness of citing online sources instead of their primary texts antecedents, the question, Galadriel55 is *why* this quote interests you. Insofar as it's not Tolkien's own words you're quoting, it would be far more interesting (to me, at least) to know why *you* find this articulation interesting.

*coughs*

It was a different explanation of why Morgoth could only twist existing beings. I was not citing it as the ultimate truth, just as another person's opinion that varied from mine.

Melkor didn't actually create anything.

Wasn't that what I said in my previous post?...

After all, what we know from the first of these quotes that Melkor had the greatest power and a share in all the gifts of his brethren; we do not know that he ever used them.

See above.

X-posted with Alatar

?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Wasn't that what I said in my previous post?...

Well, I wasn't disagreeing with you, so that would make sense.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

?

It's entirely possible that I imagined the whole thing... but I could swear that Alatar posted right after I did...