Game Thread: TIG XCII - Disaster by the Lake

[Shastanis Althreduin]

"Still" suspicious? Interesting, given that so far all you've mentioned re: Nerwen is a polite request to explain why she used the word "backstabbing" in her first IC post.

And are you suspicious of Inzil just because Nogrod says to be, or do you actually have any reasons of your own?

[Bom Tombadillo]

And is there any problem with being suspicious of someone based on things another pointed out?

Besides, I can find nothing more to suspect anyone because of. If anybody would care to confess wolvishness? No? Then since I have no time machine, I am forced to form suspicions based on the (very) little information available so far.

[Nogrod]

So I'm back and have read the thread. And it's 1AM. How proper that is.

Okay. I need to think and check a few things. But anyone willing to talk, I'll be around for the next... while...

[Nogrod]

Okay. My initial reason to suspect Lottie more than Zil from their more or less similar actions (turning their wheels on Bom) was that unlike Zil who added the "it might be taken in many ways", Lottie went on saying "never mind, then".

Now it is hard for me to see any innocent saying that because someone acts suspiciously - and that is his habit - then there is no reaason to look after that person, that we should not mind ourselves with that person at all.

An innocent fears everyone as an innocent doesn't know the roles of others. Thus an innocent can't give a free pass to anyone. An innocent can't afford to say "never mind that person".

Now looked at through the Devil's Avocate's eyes there would be just a nice solution to Lottie's behaviour. After a few people make quite strong points for Bom being "just himself" and thus not especially super-suspicious because of that, she feels she should not pursue that point any further. As a wolf she has nothing at stake there (presuming Bom's innocence, that is, and which would be probable if Lottie is a wolf) and thus she just says "never mind" as to show she's off from that pursuit. But as a wolf she forgets that an innocent can't think "never mind" on anyone... and that betrays her.

Okay. If you're not a wolf Lottie, don't get mad at me, but that is the rational explanation I can give to what you said...

Now Zil seems to be a big questionmark in his own right and I do need to check back on him as well.

[Nogrod]

I could buy this multi-tasking explanation by Zil (I know from experience it is darn hard to try and play WW while multi-tasking - although that leads me not to do that if possible), but it looks quite odd what Pitchie pointed out back there on page1 on him forgetting Galadriel's vote even thoguh he commented on it in the same post he made the initial suspicion on Nerwen.

It kind of looks more like trying to save the milk that was accidentally spilled. I mean multi tasking can distract one, but like that?

Well, to be honest, I don't know. There's a four hour interval between the first post and the continuation of the discussion so it is possible he forgot it... then again it looks like a classic "save-manouver" by someone who is not speaking truthfully.


EDIT: X'd with some posts I see...

[Inziladun]

Ok, let's do this:

++Nog

Like I said, I think Greenie's noticed a couple of things, and now it looks like he may be turning to my bandwaggon.

Now it's time for salsa, chips, and chicken fajitas.

Good Day.

[A Little Green]

Nah. Well past bed-time for me.

++ Nog

Strongest bad vibes this far. Nothing new to add to what I've already said, but to sum up - he's reaching, first with Gal, then with Lottie. Both are known to be easy early lynches. I don't like it.


EDIT: x-ed with Zil

[Nogrod]

Pitch & Greenie: you know full well innocent players have different motives behind their speculations on certain subjects. And I hope what you're asking is done under the same motivation (and from the innocent POV).

Originally Posted by Greenie

Nog, you're reaching. Lottie never said "never mind that person" but rather "never mind that particular point against that person" - which is something an innocent can afford to say.

And you are not reaching when you say Lottie meant "never mind that particular point against that person".

She said "never mind, then". And to me that reads like "I'll drop the suspicion", not "I'm watching him closely but will dismiss this particualr suspicion".


EDIT: X'd with two... votes for me! How nice!

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Greenie's been bringing up some interesting points about Nog..

She said he was reading too much into two things (Gal's Night activities and you & Lottie's reactions to Bom) which isn't exactly a point against him, and then she said this:

Originally Posted by Green

That's actually a good point. Why point that out, Nog? Unless you're the cobbler and want to make sure the wolves don't miss it, that is.

to which I offered an alternative explanation in #50 so I don't really think it's that good of a point at all.

I refuse to judge Greenie yet because I know her and Nog and I don't want to start arguing so early on (and besides we're both wolves, even if in different packs), but Zil's jump on her feeble points against Nog doesn't sit right with me at all. Especially as I have decided to like Noggins for now, and I like his point against Lottie.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Not the first three, but the earlier talk about Bom. See what I wrote in #27.

So why didn't you say you think Kit is a wolf and the other two might be as well? Your attitude was more reminiscent of "lynch A and if she isn't a wolf, lynch B and if she isn't a wolf, lynch...!"

a) Thanks for the education. b) Didn't you forget a there? Seriously, yes, I've at least once seen you trying to look like a cobbler to the wolves and/or vice versa.

a) You're welcome.
And b) I ran out of smilies because I wanted to have two s to signal my merriment. And I have a vague memory of that but can't remember which game it was.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Pitch & Greenie: you know full well innocent players have different motives behind their speculations on certain subjects. And I hope what you're asking is done under the same motivation (and from the innocent POV).

And sometimes good reasons to keep said speculations to themselves for the time being.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And you are not reaching when you say Lottie meant "never mind that particular point against that person".

She said "never mind, then". And to me that reads like "I'll drop the suspicion", not "I'm watching him closely but will dismiss this particualr suspicion".

But if she thought that particular point against that person, which was the only point against them at the time, was moot, why would she have to say she'd watch him (more) closely (than anybody else)?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

EDIT: X'd with two... votes for me! How nice!

Enjoy. I've half a mind to add one.

Originally Posted by Agan

So why didn't you say you think Kit is a wolf and the other two might be as well? Your attitude was more reminiscent of "lynch A and if she isn't a wolf, lynch B and if she isn't a wolf, lynch...!"

Because I've said as much in my first post, and I don't have to repeat everything I say all over, do I?

Btw I don't think your alternative explanations works, but I'd rather not go into details at this time.

(x-ed with Nog, Agan, Lottie, Agan)

EDIT: and actually a lot more.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Kit

I wouldn't read too much into any of that unless it continues further. It looked like a bunch of Day 1 silliness for all involved.

All his talk of being the cobbler looked exactly like that to me - Day 1 silliness. Whoever the cobbler is, I doubt they're going to go jumping up and down shouting "I'm the cobbler!"

Originally Posted by Nog

If Galadriel were a gifted she wouldn't have then slipped that "I can actually participate a bit more are Nights" -thing. That would be far too reckless. But could she slip it as a wolf? Or is it just an ordo talking things that are not necessarily to the point regarding the game (as ordos have nothing to do by Night)?

Quite honestly, I think you're reading too much into that comment. The way I saw it, she was just mentioning her bad luck concerning the Days - a thing a wolf would not "slip" since she wouldn't consider it bad luck at all.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hmmn. You know, I'm guessing Boro would actually avoid making the cobbler, well, the cobbler.

I don't think we can draw any conclusions based on that - or we might as well start rationalizing it along the lines of "Shasta (miscreant) and Inzil (furrier) are probably not wolves because of their dodgy occupations".

Originally Posted by Kath

I'm here

Second game in a row! You've got to be kidding me, dear.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Anyway, thanks for telling the wolves she's not gifted!

That's actually a good point. Why point that out, Nog? Unless you're the cobbler and want to make sure the wolves don't miss it, that is.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Also, being aggressive per se isn't necessarily evil in WW, is it?

Not necessarily, no - some tend to play more agreeable when they're evil. But aggressive can also have to do with nervous and overreacting, which, in their turn, are traits that often enough go with being evil.

Originally Posted by Nog

So I'm back and have read the thread. And it's 1AM. How proper that is.

I can relate.


EDIT: x-ed with Pitch and Nog

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nog

An innocent fears everyone as an innocent doesn't know the roles of others. Thus an innocent can't give a free pass to anyone. An innocent can't afford to say "never mind that person".

Nog, you're reaching. Lottie never said "never mind that person" but rather "never mind that particular point against that person" - which is something an innocent can afford to say.

[Inziladun]

Hmm. I may have to vote here in a bit, and not much clue who to go for.

Bom is just too easy of a target, on Day 1 especially.

Greenie's been bringing up some interesting points about Nog..

Then there's Kit and Sally who have been very quiet.

Agan makes me nervous, no surprise there.



x/d with Agan

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Where? What makes it look like that?
Yes statistics say so and all, but it's just as likely there was no wolf. Saying "a wolf was probably involved here or there" is entirely arbitrary and works only to cast suspicion on a certain group of players without reason - it's almost as good as saying "there's probably a wolf within the first third of the player list".

Not the first three, but the earlier talk about Bom. See what I wrote in #27.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

As for a), I wouldn't have to give credit to Bom's reveal. It would be a convenient situation for a wolf to alert the cobbler (or the other way round), whoever she is. The cobbler and/or the wolves surely being smart and all, they will keep an eye on me until I do something overtly innocent, and we'll see who laughs last.
And b)... have I actually done that?

a) Thanks for the education. b) Didn't you forget a there? Seriously, yes, I've at least once seen you trying to look like a cobbler to the wolves and/or vice versa.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Then there's Kit and Sally who have been very quiet.

I did say I wasn't going to be around until an hour before DL.

But I am back and I've skimmed and Lottie's name looked bolded a lot and I see two votes for Nog. I'm going to do the best I can to read and comment in the time I have.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

And is there any problem with being suspicious of someone based on things another pointed out?

If you have no points of your own and just latch on to someone else's, yes.

At least your suspicion of Nerwen is original, but I still don't see what it's based on. Care to elaborate?

Originally Posted by Zil

Ah, it's nice to feel the love.

You're most welcome.

Originally Posted by Zil

I know Bom is Bom. Doesn't mean I don't want to lynch him sometimes just to be on the safe side.

I have similar feelings about more than one player in this game.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Normal to him or not, jumping all around the place calling himself the cobbler is at best adding to the confusion. --- That doesn't mean I'm going to vote for him just for that. It will depend on his later posting and on what others do meanwhile.

Ditto.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

-Grabs another apple-

You should have seen the way Greenie and I ate an apple at the concert venue. Hint: Legate, of all people, predicted it was going to turn erotic.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

You mean you're in two different wolfpacks? Also, that would be quite a convenient thing to say if the two of you were packmates, in case of some later wolf-on-wolf.

Yes I do. And I know, and if you want to argue whether I'd bring attention to us like that so early on, go ahead. There are arguments both for and against it.

Originally Posted by Pitch

I don't know about Zil, but are you, Miss Pretty Leather-boots?

Yes. But it's up to you to decide what I'm actually trying to say.

Originally Posted by Loslote

Acting unusually is one of the clearest signs of someone being evil. Bom's behavior struck me as unusual, but when I was reassured that it was usual for me, I didn't think it worthwhile to continue looking at it as somewhat suspicious.

Or someone being gifted. I wouldn't say Bom's behaviour has been unusual enough to merit either title, but I do wonder why you didn't think of the other option.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Not only at work but listening to online shows and playing Werewolf at the same time? Crime must be running rampant in Alabama.

You just cracked me up so badly.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Anyway, thanks for telling the wolves she's not gifted!

Ah but it isn't that simple: Nog works in mysterious ways. Sharp-eyed Nogrod might be protecting an assumed gifted by saying that! Chew on that, wolves (and even if Lottie happens to be one, you can always discuss Nog's motives ).

Originally Posted by Pitch

One thing he said I agree with though, that there was probably a wolf involved somewhere in the early talk toDay. I'd really like Kit to come back and talk some more while I'm online.

Where? What makes it look like that?
Yes statistics say so and all, but it's just as likely there was no wolf. Saying "a wolf was probably involved here or there" is entirely arbitrary and works only to cast suspicion on a certain group of players without reason - it's almost as good as saying "there's probably a wolf within the first third of the player list".

I was feeling good about Pitch up until that.

her question to Bom re pretty leather boots has a whiff of wolf waving to the self-revealed cobbler, but a) she would know not to take that reveal at face value, and b) she also does that pretty often as an innocent (as I know too well).

As for a), I wouldn't have to give credit to Bom's reveal. It would be a convenient situation for a wolf to alert the cobbler (or the other way round), whoever she is. The cobbler and/or the wolves surely being smart and all, they will keep an eye on me until I do something overtly innocent, and we'll see who laughs last.
And b)... have I actually done that?

I am still feeling bad about Shasta because he pops in every now and then in a way that reminds me vividly of him as a wolf - it's not like he was chasing the kill or jumping for its throat, he's rather just snapping at its legs.

I'm feeling ok with Nerwen and Nog at the moment. My vote is probably going to be for Shasta or Lottie, or Pitch but rather not because apart from this one weird thing, he's making the most sense out of the three.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Or someone being gifted. I wouldn't say Bom's behaviour has been unusual enough to merit either title, but I do wonder why you didn't think of the other option.

Usually I don't think of gifteds as trying to attract attention, and that's what I thought Bom was doing.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Usually I don't think of gifteds as trying to attract attention, and that's what I thought Bom was doing.

And why would a wolf do that?

[Nogrod]

I just checked it: Greenie never mentions Zil in her late posting, even if he was under some considerable pressure. But she made her "decision" on me on grounds of defending Galadriel (for which there was no reason) and Lottie (to whom I was "reaching" - even if I had explained it in two posts why I said I was suspicious of her).

First of all it looks pretty wolvish to vote by "defending others" (in normal situations on D1 the only ones who can do it are wolves). But secondly it makes both Gal & Lottie look more innocent (neither was in dire straits and defending ordos is the best way for a wolf to gain trust and friendship).

But the fact she didn't mention Zil at all, despite the suspicions, makes me wonder if the two really are in cahoots...