Game Thread: TIG XCII - Disaster by the Lake

[Bom Tombadillo]

And is there any problem with being suspicious of someone based on things another pointed out?

Besides, I can find nothing more to suspect anyone because of. If anybody would care to confess wolvishness? No? Then since I have no time machine, I am forced to form suspicions based on the (very) little information available so far.

[Nogrod]

So I'm back and have read the thread. And it's 1AM. How proper that is.

Okay. I need to think and check a few things. But anyone willing to talk, I'll be around for the next... while...

[Nogrod]

Okay. My initial reason to suspect Lottie more than Zil from their more or less similar actions (turning their wheels on Bom) was that unlike Zil who added the "it might be taken in many ways", Lottie went on saying "never mind, then".

Now it is hard for me to see any innocent saying that because someone acts suspiciously - and that is his habit - then there is no reaason to look after that person, that we should not mind ourselves with that person at all.

An innocent fears everyone as an innocent doesn't know the roles of others. Thus an innocent can't give a free pass to anyone. An innocent can't afford to say "never mind that person".

Now looked at through the Devil's Avocate's eyes there would be just a nice solution to Lottie's behaviour. After a few people make quite strong points for Bom being "just himself" and thus not especially super-suspicious because of that, she feels she should not pursue that point any further. As a wolf she has nothing at stake there (presuming Bom's innocence, that is, and which would be probable if Lottie is a wolf) and thus she just says "never mind" as to show she's off from that pursuit. But as a wolf she forgets that an innocent can't think "never mind" on anyone... and that betrays her.

Okay. If you're not a wolf Lottie, don't get mad at me, but that is the rational explanation I can give to what you said...

Now Zil seems to be a big questionmark in his own right and I do need to check back on him as well.

[Nogrod]

I could buy this multi-tasking explanation by Zil (I know from experience it is darn hard to try and play WW while multi-tasking - although that leads me not to do that if possible), but it looks quite odd what Pitchie pointed out back there on page1 on him forgetting Galadriel's vote even thoguh he commented on it in the same post he made the initial suspicion on Nerwen.

It kind of looks more like trying to save the milk that was accidentally spilled. I mean multi tasking can distract one, but like that?

Well, to be honest, I don't know. There's a four hour interval between the first post and the continuation of the discussion so it is possible he forgot it... then again it looks like a classic "save-manouver" by someone who is not speaking truthfully.


EDIT: X'd with some posts I see...

[Inziladun]

Ok, let's do this:

++Nog

Like I said, I think Greenie's noticed a couple of things, and now it looks like he may be turning to my bandwaggon.

Now it's time for salsa, chips, and chicken fajitas.

Good Day.

[A Little Green]

Nah. Well past bed-time for me.

++ Nog

Strongest bad vibes this far. Nothing new to add to what I've already said, but to sum up - he's reaching, first with Gal, then with Lottie. Both are known to be easy early lynches. I don't like it.


EDIT: x-ed with Zil

[Nogrod]

Pitch & Greenie: you know full well innocent players have different motives behind their speculations on certain subjects. And I hope what you're asking is done under the same motivation (and from the innocent POV).

Originally Posted by Greenie

Nog, you're reaching. Lottie never said "never mind that person" but rather "never mind that particular point against that person" - which is something an innocent can afford to say.

And you are not reaching when you say Lottie meant "never mind that particular point against that person".

She said "never mind, then". And to me that reads like "I'll drop the suspicion", not "I'm watching him closely but will dismiss this particualr suspicion".


EDIT: X'd with two... votes for me! How nice!

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Greenie's been bringing up some interesting points about Nog..

She said he was reading too much into two things (Gal's Night activities and you & Lottie's reactions to Bom) which isn't exactly a point against him, and then she said this:

Originally Posted by Green

That's actually a good point. Why point that out, Nog? Unless you're the cobbler and want to make sure the wolves don't miss it, that is.

to which I offered an alternative explanation in #50 so I don't really think it's that good of a point at all.

I refuse to judge Greenie yet because I know her and Nog and I don't want to start arguing so early on (and besides we're both wolves, even if in different packs), but Zil's jump on her feeble points against Nog doesn't sit right with me at all. Especially as I have decided to like Noggins for now, and I like his point against Lottie.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Not the first three, but the earlier talk about Bom. See what I wrote in #27.

So why didn't you say you think Kit is a wolf and the other two might be as well? Your attitude was more reminiscent of "lynch A and if she isn't a wolf, lynch B and if she isn't a wolf, lynch...!"

a) Thanks for the education. b) Didn't you forget a there? Seriously, yes, I've at least once seen you trying to look like a cobbler to the wolves and/or vice versa.

a) You're welcome.
And b) I ran out of smilies because I wanted to have two s to signal my merriment. And I have a vague memory of that but can't remember which game it was.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Pitch & Greenie: you know full well innocent players have different motives behind their speculations on certain subjects. And I hope what you're asking is done under the same motivation (and from the innocent POV).

And sometimes good reasons to keep said speculations to themselves for the time being.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And you are not reaching when you say Lottie meant "never mind that particular point against that person".

She said "never mind, then". And to me that reads like "I'll drop the suspicion", not "I'm watching him closely but will dismiss this particualr suspicion".

But if she thought that particular point against that person, which was the only point against them at the time, was moot, why would she have to say she'd watch him (more) closely (than anybody else)?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

EDIT: X'd with two... votes for me! How nice!

Enjoy. I've half a mind to add one.

Originally Posted by Agan

So why didn't you say you think Kit is a wolf and the other two might be as well? Your attitude was more reminiscent of "lynch A and if she isn't a wolf, lynch B and if she isn't a wolf, lynch...!"

Because I've said as much in my first post, and I don't have to repeat everything I say all over, do I?

Btw I don't think your alternative explanations works, but I'd rather not go into details at this time.

(x-ed with Nog, Agan, Lottie, Agan)

EDIT: and actually a lot more.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

And sometimes good reasons to keep said speculations to themselves for the time being.

...unless they have been voiced over already... the wolves tend to read the thread at Night.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Kit

I wouldn't read too much into any of that unless it continues further. It looked like a bunch of Day 1 silliness for all involved.

All his talk of being the cobbler looked exactly like that to me - Day 1 silliness. Whoever the cobbler is, I doubt they're going to go jumping up and down shouting "I'm the cobbler!"

Originally Posted by Nog

If Galadriel were a gifted she wouldn't have then slipped that "I can actually participate a bit more are Nights" -thing. That would be far too reckless. But could she slip it as a wolf? Or is it just an ordo talking things that are not necessarily to the point regarding the game (as ordos have nothing to do by Night)?

Quite honestly, I think you're reading too much into that comment. The way I saw it, she was just mentioning her bad luck concerning the Days - a thing a wolf would not "slip" since she wouldn't consider it bad luck at all.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hmmn. You know, I'm guessing Boro would actually avoid making the cobbler, well, the cobbler.

I don't think we can draw any conclusions based on that - or we might as well start rationalizing it along the lines of "Shasta (miscreant) and Inzil (furrier) are probably not wolves because of their dodgy occupations".

Originally Posted by Kath

I'm here

Second game in a row! You've got to be kidding me, dear.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Anyway, thanks for telling the wolves she's not gifted!

That's actually a good point. Why point that out, Nog? Unless you're the cobbler and want to make sure the wolves don't miss it, that is.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Also, being aggressive per se isn't necessarily evil in WW, is it?

Not necessarily, no - some tend to play more agreeable when they're evil. But aggressive can also have to do with nervous and overreacting, which, in their turn, are traits that often enough go with being evil.

Originally Posted by Nog

So I'm back and have read the thread. And it's 1AM. How proper that is.

I can relate.


EDIT: x-ed with Pitch and Nog

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nog

An innocent fears everyone as an innocent doesn't know the roles of others. Thus an innocent can't give a free pass to anyone. An innocent can't afford to say "never mind that person".

Nog, you're reaching. Lottie never said "never mind that person" but rather "never mind that particular point against that person" - which is something an innocent can afford to say.

[Inziladun]

Hmm. I may have to vote here in a bit, and not much clue who to go for.

Bom is just too easy of a target, on Day 1 especially.

Greenie's been bringing up some interesting points about Nog..

Then there's Kit and Sally who have been very quiet.

Agan makes me nervous, no surprise there.



x/d with Agan

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Where? What makes it look like that?
Yes statistics say so and all, but it's just as likely there was no wolf. Saying "a wolf was probably involved here or there" is entirely arbitrary and works only to cast suspicion on a certain group of players without reason - it's almost as good as saying "there's probably a wolf within the first third of the player list".

Not the first three, but the earlier talk about Bom. See what I wrote in #27.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

As for a), I wouldn't have to give credit to Bom's reveal. It would be a convenient situation for a wolf to alert the cobbler (or the other way round), whoever she is. The cobbler and/or the wolves surely being smart and all, they will keep an eye on me until I do something overtly innocent, and we'll see who laughs last.
And b)... have I actually done that?

a) Thanks for the education. b) Didn't you forget a there? Seriously, yes, I've at least once seen you trying to look like a cobbler to the wolves and/or vice versa.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by LupineGreen?

to sum up - he's reaching, first with Gal, then with Lottie. Both are known to be easy early lynches. I don't like it.

I was not reaching with Galadriel as I only asked from what role would she say that?

Also, I think I made it clear why I think Lottie looks suspicious. Greenie seems to have had no time or wish to comment on my explanation on that (#47). And what I said in #55 doesn't make Greenie look any better.

But seeing Inzil's eagerness to jump on what Greenie has been preparing looks not the less suspicious. Blah... the clock is ticking and I need to go to sleep...

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Then there's Kit and Sally who have been very quiet.

I did say I wasn't going to be around until an hour before DL.

But I am back and I've skimmed and Lottie's name looked bolded a lot and I see two votes for Nog. I'm going to do the best I can to read and comment in the time I have.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Be known that Galadriel55 is a sneaking, backstabbing wretch! Let none sample her cooking!

I bet she says the same thing about you Nerwen.

Originally Posted by Nog

So even if I see what Greenie and some others say, I'm not going to let Bom slip by just for that being "normal" to him.

I find it more telling how Bom reacts when people accuse him based on goofy posts.

Originally Posted by Nog

If Galadriel were a gifted she wouldn't have then slipped that "I can actually participate a bit more are Nights" -thing. That would be far too reckless. But could she slip it as a wolf? Or is it just an ordo talking things that are not necessarily to the point regarding the game (as ordos have nothing to do by Night)?

I read this as an innocent statement saying she has no time during the Day phase right now. I think a lot of us fall into this category toDay.

In post #24 I like what Nog has to say about the after posts from Inzil and Lottie regarding Bom. I still feel their remarks about Bom were made in jest, but they backed away in seriousness when before things had been light Day 1 jargon.

Originally Posted by Bom

Lastly, Nerwen? Would you mind providing an explanation for why G55's vote is "backstabbing?" Perhaps you had agreed not to do wolf-on-wolf, or some such thing . . .

This is reading too much into an IC joke post for my taste.

Originally Posted by Pitch[/quote

Kit #12 supposes that both Zil & Lottie weren't serious because of smilies in their post. Why say that when nobody had yet questioned the whole matter? Wasn't it a bit early in the Day to be so concerned for peace in the village, while in the same breath complaining there was nothing going on?

It wasn't meant to defend or accuse them, but to state the fact that that was all that was happening at the time. I didn't want to disappear for 12 hours and have everyone wondering where I went.

Originally Posted by Bom's response to Pitch

True, but on most of the occasions when I've seen the phrase used, it's been in cases of treachery. It may have different connotations to others of course.

What kind of wolf openly accuses another one of backstabbing in public?

Originally Posted by Kath

G55, Kitanna and Bom should be the three wolves. One wolf says 'well we could start with silly list posts' but unfortunately they all three did it!

I so rarely get to do the silly list thing. I always show up too late and stuff has actually happened. How I relished the idea of doing it, only to have two more following immediately. I'm so sad. /lamenting sarcasm In seriousness, I wish I hadn't even bothered.

Originally Posted by Bom

I'm still suspicious of Nerwolf, though Wolfrod makes some good points about Wolf-zilla. I might vote for either of them (either of Nerwolf or Wolf-zilla, that is). Galadriwolf55 still doesn't seem that terribly suspicious to me, though that opinion is subject to change

Color me stupid, but who is Wolf-zilla? Godzilla's hairy cousin? Are you suspicious of Nerwen solely on her "backstabbing post"? And I'm reading fast and missing things, but when did Nog get on people's radars?

Originally Posted by Bom

And is there any problem with being suspicious of someone based on things another pointed out?

This was a response to Shasta. And this right here is why I fall to suspecting you. You get so very defensive when people question you and your reasonings. I've learned from the past not to jump on this defensive behavior on Day 1, but I have other reasons for suspecting you. I'm curious about this suspicions of Nerwen. She hasn't said anything but her IC post and a quick rebuttal. Please correct me if I'm wrong about that. Why is she your suspect? Why is Nogrod your suspect? Explanations please!

Originally Posted by Nog

An innocent fears everyone as an innocent doesn't know the roles of others. Thus an innocent can't give a free pass to anyone. An innocent can't afford to say "never mind that person".

This is an interesting point, not only in relation to Lottie, but in general. I don't have time to sit and pick apart Lottie's posts, especially the ones in question.

Originally Posted by Greenie

Nog, you're reaching. Lottie never said "never mind that person" but rather "never mind that particular point against that person" - which is something an innocent can afford to say.

This is the first thing I've seen that suggests Nog may be up to no good. I.E. putting words in Lottie's mouth to lean the lynching to her?

Originally Posted by Inzil

Like I said, I think Greenie's noticed a couple of things, and now it looks like he may be turning to my bandwaggon.

Bandwagon? As in he's trying to get one on you?

Inzil's vote for Nog seems like a piggyback on Greenie's suspicious. Aside from Nog, she's made the best case for a lynch candidate and it's not even that strong. (I don't expect any to be that strong toDAy though)

Greenie makes a decent point about Nog. If I had time to scrutinize I could judge for myself, however I find myself lamenting my time crisis over and over when there's nothing to be done about it. So I'm making my decision now, as best I can based on the little information I've gained in less than an hour.

And even now as I hit "refresh" thing are being said of note! Ah!

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

And is there any problem with being suspicious of someone based on things another pointed out?

If you have no points of your own and just latch on to someone else's, yes.

At least your suspicion of Nerwen is original, but I still don't see what it's based on. Care to elaborate?

Originally Posted by Zil

Ah, it's nice to feel the love.

You're most welcome.

Originally Posted by Zil

I know Bom is Bom. Doesn't mean I don't want to lynch him sometimes just to be on the safe side.

I have similar feelings about more than one player in this game.