Why Genealogies?

[Lalwendë]

Let me bump this one up, seeing as I've been almost completely immersed in family tree research for some time now and it interests me...

I was thinking about exactly how Hobbits would even begin to go about family tree research, or if they simply enjoyed reading family trees that were already drawn up. Because just looking up a completed family tree is a very different thing to actually doing the lengthy and very expensive research yourself.

To compile a tree, a Hobbit would need lots of accurate records to look up. There must have been some kind of administration in The Shire given that there is a Mayor and it is divided up into regions, but did they register events such as births/marriages/deaths in any way? Did they take part in official ceremonies for these and thus leave some kind of 'parish record'? Or did someone simply record events in a communal book that had been held and annotated by previous generations? Hmmmm...

I do think that a primary concern for Hobbits was inheritance, given that 'headships' of families seemed to be inheritable (even if they didn't necessarily come with any land - see the next head of the Baggins family after Bilbo and Frodo left) and also that in some families they seem to have been restricted to males only. The Baggins 'headship' bypassed several females with a strong claim and went to males only, even if they were distant on the tree, whereas the Sackville line could obviously pass through a female branch of the tree (Otho inherited his Sackville name from his mother).

I say that objectively, as someone who is knee deep in my own research and neither expecting nor hoping to find anyone who was anything more than 'umble. I find pure pleasure in this, and I'm certain Hobbits would too, plus enjoy knowing which neighbours were distant family. But they clearly had important 'legal' (maybe not legal in the formal sense but certainly in the sense of following established family custom) reasons to pursue family history too.

Side note - did they have lawyers in The Shire? What a horrible thought...

As for whether Tolkien himself was interested in this, I wonder whether he was ever successful. If so, then he must have visited a lot of parishes and looked through dozens of dusty books of records. It's quite strange to think that I could sit down now and trace his family tree back through the 19thC just from my computer and it would have taken him months, even years, to achieve that.

[Oddwen]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

To compile a tree, a Hobbit would need lots of accurate records to look up. There must have been some kind of administration in The Shire given that there is a Mayor and it is divided up into regions, but did they register events such as births/marriages/deaths in any way? Did they take part in official ceremonies for these and thus leave some kind of 'parish record'? Or did someone simply record events in a communal book that had been held and annotated by previous generations? Hmmmm...

I do think that a primary concern for Hobbits was inheritance, given that 'headships' of families seemed to be inheritable (even if they didn't necessarily come with any land - see the next head of the Baggins family after Bilbo and Frodo left) and also that in some families they seem to have been restricted to males only. The Baggins 'headship' bypassed several females with a strong claim and went to males only, even if they were distant on the tree, whereas the Sackville line could obviously pass through a female branch of the tree (Otho inherited his Sackville name from his mother).

Well, we know that Bilbo's will needed seven signatures in red ink to be legal, that there makes me think that there was some sort of strict filing system in place.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

At the end of the Hobbit, Bilbo finds his possessions being auctioned by "Messrs Grubb, Grubb, and Burrowes", which certainly sounds like a legal firm. His return caused a "legal bother", so the Shire had lawyers at any rate.

[Lalwendë]

Maybe the lawyers had some responsibility for record keeping? There was obviously some form of administration but not a 'state' as there was little need for control (few external threats and abundance of resources).

It all adds to my long-held impression that The Shire is a very different and much more modern place than the rest of Middle-earth. Rohan is still operating like an Anglo-Saxon society with portable wealth and something like 'wapentakes'; Gondor is like a feudal city state in stasis; and the Elves in some kind of pre-historic society (all very debatable of course - this is just a quick glance at the contrasts). While The Shire has a postal service, 'museums', lawyers, complex inheritance customs, developed trade, an elected Mayor, even a rudimentary police force. It always reminds me of a highly idealised view of Edwardian England without the heavy industry or intense poverty...I digress....

The position of Thain was inherited, and though the Thain wasn't an 'aristocrat' by any means, and more like a titular steward in control of any military needs, no doubt it was still an honoured position and it would be important to keep track of who was in the line of succession. Pippin had sisters who were older to the best of my knowledge, so it looks to have been inherited through males only - another reason why they would need to keep an eye on the family tree!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Maybe the lawyers had some responsibility for record keeping? There was obviously some form of administration but not a 'state' as there was little need for control (few external threats and abundance of resources).

Oh, I don't know. The Hobbits seem so fond of their genealogical knowledge I can't see them entrusting it to an outside party. Besides, so many families were related in some way, with each keeping track of its own relations, I would think solid evidence of who was kin to whom would have been that much more reliable.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

It all adds to my long-held impression that The Shire is a very different and much more modern place than the rest of Middle-earth. Rohan is still operating like an Anglo-Saxon society with portable wealth and something like 'wapentakes'; Gondor is like a feudal city state in stasis; and the Elves in some kind of pre-historic society (all very debatable of course - this is just a quick glance at the contrasts). While The Shire has a postal service, 'museums', lawyers, complex inheritance customs, developed trade, an elected Mayor, even a rudimentary police force. It always reminds me of a highly idealised view of Edwardian England without the heavy industry or intense poverty...I digress....

The Shire is an obvious enigma in relation to the rest of ME. I think the idea that it's the most "modern", while at the same time pretty darned near to an idyllic way of life from my point of view, is fascinating.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The position of Thain was inherited, and though the Thain wasn't an 'aristocrat' by any means, and more like a titular steward in control of any military needs, no doubt it was still an honoured position and it would be important to keep track of who was in the line of succession. Pippin had sisters who were older to the best of my knowledge, so it looks to have been inherited through males only - another reason why they would need to keep an eye on the family tree!

It certainly seems more important than the Mayor's position, though the Thainship by the Third age was, as you note, more of an honorary title like the noble titles still used in Europe today. The Thainship would seem to be a fairly easy succession to track, though one wonders what would happen if the Thain died or went off into the wild (like them crazy Tooks sometimes did ) before he had produced an heir.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Oh, I don't know. The Hobbits seem so fond of their genealogical knowledge I can't see them entrusting it to an outside party. Besides, so many families were related in some way, with each keeping track of its own relations, I would think solid evidence of who was kin to whom would have been that much more reliable.

It is pure speculation on my part of course. Though I'd like to think there was some authoritative volume of 'correct' research which any others were based on - and that's probably rooted in my own annoyance at coming across bad family research online where other people have members of my family noted down with totally incorrect facts!

The Shire is an obvious enigma in relation to the rest of ME. I think the idea that it's the most "modern", while at the same time pretty darned near to an idyllic way of life from my point of view, is fascinating.

I couldn't cope in any other part of Middle-earth.

It certainly seems more important than the Mayor's position, though the Thainship by the Third age was, as you note, more of an honorary title like the noble titles still used in Europe today. The Thainship would seem to be a fairly easy succession to track, though one wonders what would happen if the Thain died or went off into the wild (like them crazy Tooks sometimes did ) before he had produced an heir.

It would be, and is, an easy line to trace, but there seems to have been quite a big remove between Pippin and the next male in line, had he not made it back from his adventures. If all female descendants were bypassed (as under Salic Law), I think they'd have had to look for descendants of his great-grandfather's brothers, though I can only see evidence of the usual kind of primogeniture, as no female lines were in the running to have ever been discounted.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Shire is an obvious enigma in relation to the rest of ME. I think the idea that it's the most "modern", while at the same time pretty darned near to an idyllic way of life from my point of view, is fascinating.

Intriguing! Put that way, it runs counter to the idea of the "long defeat".

Just a bit of an aside, too, about the dominance of male primogeniture: Gollem's tribe was matriarchial apparently.

[Legolas]

Living in a very small town with a lot of farmers and at best, a slow trickle of new faces, I can tell you that many of the people here of my grandparents' and to a somewhat lesser degree, my parents' generation aren't too different. It looks as though it'll be lost a bit with my generation with more of us getting jobs elsewhere, completing college, etc.

Just a part of small town life?

Perhaps part of it is because many of us live on the same family land, passed down and divided among the generations, so we have benefited quite tangibly from some of their toils.