Why Genealogies?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I happen to think Hobbits maintained records of ancestry mostly for purposes of determining inheritance, though that doesn't stop it from being a fascinating pastime to look up who they may be related to and so on...

Interesting ideas all round here, especially the point that the elves didn't need written records as they had the original witnesses still around, for the most part.

Well, cultures the world over used genealogies to determine not only inheritance but to define the limits of incest--who could marry who. Given the fecunity of hobbits, this probably was also a valuable function.

The Gondorian attitude is clearly more political than the attitude in The Shire, which to me still seems to harken back more to aboriginal cultures. For instance, we have the example of Gollem/Smeagol's branch of the hobbits, which apparently is (was?) matriarchial and used shunning as a form of communal punishment, which was (is?) used by religious groups to condemn proscribed behaviours whereas Gondor seems to be more legalistic. Perhaps this is simply because of the role of the Stewardship, which takes central focus on Gondor, and we hear little about other families. Hobbits seem to be a form of social or cultural organisation that is still largely based on the extended family rather than the nuclear family. Of course, it still didn't stop denizens of The Shire from typecasting families, such as the Tooks. At the very least, the family trees in The Shire suggest a conservative culture.

Is anyone very conversant in kinship in Viking/Scandinavian cultures? All I know is the prevalent use of patronymics rather than surnames.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Well, cultures the world over used genealogies to determine not only inheritance but to define the limits of incest...

Hmmm...that puts a whole new slant on a phrase such as "Being Merry with Mr. Bilbo is not always Rosie. "

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Is anyone very conversant in kinship in Viking/Scandinavian cultures? All I know is the prevalent use of patronymics rather than surnames.

I'm not too conversant in Nordic cultural naming conventions, but patronymics are most prevalent (Gottfredson, Ericson, or the Icelandic/Faroese dottir for female descendants); however, it seems patronymics are just as endemic in English history (perhaps the Anglo-Saxon variant?), with naming conventions ending in -son (Smithson, Williamson, Johnson, etc.), and in Irish and Scots genealogy (the O prefix in O'Neil, or Mc or Mac in McClellan or MacDonald).

[Lalaith]

Icelanders still use patronyms, genetive form of father's name + son/daughter depending on gender of child. Women always keep their patronymic surname whether they marry or not.
Matronyms are sometimes used in today's egalitarian society and also occasionally in Viking/Old Norse times.
Vikings would also use nicknames, for example Aud the Deepminded was daughter of Ketil Flatnose.
This is a fascinating subject on which I have a LOT to say, when I have time. Be warned. Icelandic has a lot of names for different kinds of relations which I just can't *wait* to bore you with.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I'm not too conversant in Nordic cultural naming conventions, but patronymics are most prevalent (Gottfredson, Ericson, or the Icelandic/Faroese dottir for female descendants); however, it seems patronymics are just as endemic in English history (perhaps the Anglo-Saxon variant?), with naming conventions ending in -son (Smithson, Williamson, Johnson, etc.), and in Irish and Scots genealogy (the O prefix in O'Neil, or Mc or Mac in McClellan or MacDonald).

Umm, well, is there an English/Scottish/Welsh/Anglo Saxon version of the -dottir variant? I don't think so. We've got tons of -sons but no Stuartdottir or Jamesgirl. And Rosie was Rosie Cotton, not Tomsdaughter.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Umm, well, is there an English/Scottish/Welsh/Anglo Saxon version of the -dottir variant? I don't think so.

I don't believe I ever inferred there was. *shrugs*

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

We've got tons of -sons but no Stuartdottir or Jamesgirl. And Rosie was Rosie Cotton, not Tomsdaughter.

Well, as females were mere chattel in jolly old England, what would be the point of recognizing them?

*runs for cover in case of possible feminine animosity*

[Lalaith]

Apart from Icelanders, the only other people I know that still keep the male/female patronymic system are the Russians: ov/ova; ev/eva.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Apart from Icelanders, the only other people I know that still keep the male/female patronymic system are the Russians: ov/ova; ev/eva.

A patriotic note: not just Russians. I believe all the Slavic nations have something like that...

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Ibri

I find it interesting that the tracing of family history is a common interest among the "lowly" Hobbits and the "high" Numenoreans, particularly since it seems a more wholesome pursuit among the Hobbits. The Men of Gondor seem to have made it into something not exactly twisted, but also not quite healthy.

With the Numenorean aspect, and especially during the third age it makes sense why those of nobility living in or outside of Gondor would be concerned so much with bloodlines. Faramir gives us an example when he reflects to Frodo about his brother asking how long it would take for their father (or himself) to become a king if a king didn't return, and Denethor replies, "Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty … In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice." Being in such a hotseat as the stewardship could give some governing reason why they would be choosey over whom they married.

Hobbits, except for a few (sackville-baggins par example), seem to use it as a more involved method of cultural and heritage celebration. There doesn't seem to be so much pressure put on preservation as merely enjoying your family, or less than favourably get something out of them (Bilbo's silver spoons incident). In a way it gives them a strength that other societies in middle earth might lack, such as strength in relation and greater connections of kinship. Frodo's 'taking in' by the Brandywine branch and Bilbo's adoption are a few examples of this.

Some members of my mom's family have the 'Numenorean view', but as for my immediate family and my dad's family we're related to far too many people from anywhere and everywhere that its kind of useless trying to gain 'acceptance' to any long lost nobility. Plus it's all rather silly.
So, I guess I have more of the hobbit view on things, it's kind of nice to find out every few years or so who else you're related to, but I'm more into recognizing even 'fictive kinship' than someone who is rather distant and I probably never will know.
(Fictive kinship is where, for example using m'self, your mother's best friends might be called and treated as 'auntie' or 'uncle', or you have a best friend for ages and they become your 'sister' and a 'daughter' to your family and vice versa).

~ Ka

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

A patriotic note: not just Russians. I believe all the Slavic nations have something like that...

There is also Ni/Nic in Irish Gaelic, the female equivalents to O/Mac, and now being used more widely by revivalists. If you look on any random Irish folk music album you'll probably find a woman using this.

I have a feeling there's also a Welsh version of this but I'll have to dig out my surnames books.