What other fantasy books do YOU read?

[Lalwendë]

Tyrion also gets very irritating after a while, there's only so much wise cracking you can take! I think that's one of the best things about Martin as a writer though - his characters change quite a lot. I don't think I could idolise any of the characters in A Song Of Ice and Fire, not even Ned Stark, it's not a world of heroes and villains.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Tyrion also gets very irritating after a while, there's only so much wise cracking you can take! I think that's one of the best things about Martin as a writer though - his characters change quite a lot. I don't think I could idolise any of the characters in A Song Of Ice and Fire, not even Ned Stark, it's not a world of heroes and villains.

SPOILERS AHEAD.

His wisecracks were the reason I did not like him at first. However, after reading a little more closely, I found he was terribly intriguing. He could possibly be called a romantic. Look at the way he keeps remembering his wife (I forget her name). He even feels for the girls working at brothels. But he knows that no one is going to take him seriously - less so if he acts all kind and encouraging. So he shrugs off emotions (or tries to) and acts tough. To put it bluntly, he knows how to play the game of thrones, even if he doesn't want to.

Of course, I'm not saying he's all good. He pretty much killed his lover and his father in cold blood, and he doesn't cringe at stealing or bribing. Still, I think he's less ruthless than Cercei and Tywin - and his greyness is what makes him so interesting.

Am I missing something here, because suddenly my argument sounds pretty stupid.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

SPOILERS AHEAD.

His wisecracks were the reason I did not like him at first. However, after reading a little more closely, I found he was terribly intriguing. He could possibly be called a romantic. Look at the way he keeps remembering his wife (I forget her name). He even feels for the girls working at brothels. But he knows that no one is going to take him seriously - less so if he acts all kind and encouraging. So he shrugs off emotions (or tries to) and acts tough. To put it bluntly, he knows how to play the game of thrones, even if he doesn't want to.

For me, it's how he is in A Dance With Dragons that forms the point at which I start to find him a bit irritating again. He's truly been through the mill at that point, and even here he doesn't stop with the clever lines. Though to be fair, I think that's why a lot of fans adore him, for his sharp tongue, and that might be why Martin chose to keep him that way. I agree he's a bit of a romantic, and that's probably his most interesting characteristic - he maintains an illusion that the women in the brothels love him for himself and not the money he has.

Originally Posted by Galadriel 55

I agree. Although I loved him for all his honourable traits, he deserved what he got. (do I hear some muttering? ) At Winterfell, where he and his justice ruled, he did fine - and got proper respect for that. But down south money is worth more than all his goodness and justice and etc. He couldn't get used to such a way of life, and wasn't fit for the game of thrones. But what really made him grey instead of white in my eyes was how he didn't stick to his honour till the end. Fine - if you value virtues above your life and the lives of those around you, so be it, don't listen to that fat ugly man telling you that you should turn around and lie to yourself and to others saying that you lied before to save your skin! And if you value truth so much, don't let it die with you! He belongs in the north, and that's that.

However, despite this, I have to give Ned his due respect for doing what he thought was right. He couldn't help it if what he thought and what others thought did not match, just as he couldn't help asking if honesty was always right.

Interestingly, I viewed Ned as being painted as fairly 'white' all the way through A Game of Thrones, as a man who would stand by his honour no matter what. That's why he agrees to go and serve the King even if it's not what is in the best interests of him, his family and his people.

In the end, he did a bad thing like so many other characters. In going off to be The Hand, he broke his family apart and left his small children to the mercies of fate. I'm sure I'm not the only one who sits and thinks "If only..." Of course, half the story wouldn't exist if he hadn't gone, but it was his pride in his honour that led to his children suffering.

What fascinates me is how there's a really slow revelation about certain things which happened in the past, in the youth of Ned, Robert, Jaime and Rhaegar. I get the feeling that I'm going to learn at some point (once he gets the story firing up again...) exactly why Ned was so wedded to 'honour'.

I think the worst of all the characters for me has to be Gregor Clegane - a truly horrible man. Though some others run him close though I don't know how far you are with the books so I won't do spoilers

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Interestingly, I viewed Ned as being painted as fairly 'white' all the way through A Game of Thrones, as a man who would stand by his honour no matter what. That's why he agrees to go and serve the King even if it's not what is in the best interests of him, his family and his people.

That's not what made him grey. It's his treason to himself that made him so - one that he thought would save some lives. It's not his fault that it didn't, but if you're so stubborn about honour, be stubborn till the end.

Originally Posted by Lal

I think the worst of all the characters for me has to be Gregor Clegane - a truly horrible man. Though some others run him close though I don't know how far you are with the books so I won't do spoilers

I can agree that he's a horrible man, but he's a beautiful character. And his brother the Hound even more so (as a character, not actually... ). I actually like Sandor Clegane a lot. He's the most interesting beast in a Beauty and the Beast thing. But I actually like that one for more than being an interesting character. Somehow he's closer to being a Ned than all these "honourable" true knights... The good, white Ned...

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I can agree that he's a horrible man, but he's a beautiful character. And his brother the Hound even more so (as a character, not actually... ). I actually like Sandor Clegane a lot. He's the most interesting beast in a Beauty and the Beast thing. But I actually like that one for more than being an interesting character. Somehow he's closer to being a Ned than all these "honourable" true knights... The good, white Ned...

Gregor I never liked, but Sandor is quite interesting. I know that he's utterly ruthless, but for some reason I can't seem to think he's all bad.

[Lalwendë]

The Hound is a fascinating character. He's introduced as a brutal man, solely a fighter, and one with a very dry and dark sense of humour. But you gradually learn his background and he shows a caring side (which comes first though? I am going to have to read again to work that out!). I think it's right that he does have more of a true sense of 'nobility' than, for example, many of the other knights of the Kingsguard. He's simply not interested in chivalry and though he's uncouth and brutal, some of his actions show more 'honour' than most of his fellows show. I always find it interesting how Sansa idolises the young, attractive nobles and knights and yet it's the twisted, brutal Hound who treats her with respect.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I always find it interesting how Sansa idolises the young, attractive nobles and knights and yet it's the twisted, brutal Hound who treats her with respect.

I kept wondering how she can be so blind to not see anything beyond his face. She should have felt something for him - pity, at least. Respect. Understanding. I was waiting for the whole book for her to develop some kind of affection for him - and instead she goes for her Florian. Sansa disappoints me. I thought she learned her lesson of judging people by their appearance with her dear prince. It's unfortunate that it spread only as far as Lannisters go. But even so - she's closer to the young brave wounded Lancel Lannister who did her nothing than to the Hound who saved her a bunch of times and opened his soul to her and just did so much more for her.