TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Rikae]

So...

did Inzil really join Lottie's "suspicion" (which I took as a joke) of Pitch for his "manage to", or no? I don't see where he did. Where is this coming from, otherwise?

Also, I'd like to point out that if Nogrod is innocent he will decide that I'm guilty at some point and that I have some complicated scheme up my sleeve that only Nogrod could invent.
If he fails to do so, I'll suspect him.

EDIT: X'd with Inzil and Lommy.

[A Little Green]

So three people saying they don't like random votes is bad, but three people saying that they don't like people complaining about random votes is fine?

Yes, because overlong rants about random votes when none have been cast are not really related to the current game, whereas remarks on those overlong rants are.

Eonwe looks sharp (me likey) and Boro slightly fishy. The latter is part gut-feeling (he seems too laid-back and nice, somehow - I mean, he's always nice, but this time it seems more conscious, sort of) and part because of the way he reacted to my previous post. He neatly downplays his own part in the pattern I wrote about by calling the whole thing shrewd observation and saying he won't vote me today. That was a really sketchy way to explain it, but I'm dead on my feet and need a bed.

Which reminds me - I'm sorry for my lousy contribution toDay, guys, but I must get to sleep, like, now.

[A Little Green]

Agh. Going with the only feeble lead I have -

++ Boro

I'd love to stay and read and discuss and most of all think, and do something a bit smarter than this, but unfortunately I've got to go. I'll be more active toMorrow, I promise. Good Night!

[Bom Tombadillo]

Arrrgh. Well, I've got nothing. Except . . . I don't like Greenie's vote; I really don't see what Boro has done to deserve a vote. Still, I'll not vote her until she can explain herself; it's entirely possible I'm missing something.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So three people saying they don't like random votes is bad, but three people saying that they don't like people complaining about random votes is fine?

Yes, because ranting about random votes is just space-filler, but talking about posting and commenting about the posts being space-fillers can lead to getting a better idea of how the ranters (and commenters, for that matter) are playing (which can help lead to suspicion or lack thereof).

[QUOTE=Thinlómien;667405][Pitchwife - makes some weird points and generally isn't especially honest-seeming, but then again I'm kind of sympathetic towards him after that really weird attack from Lottie and Zil's direction.[/QUOTE[

That wasn't an attack by any means. It was one semi-banter, playful poke post and one post that didn't actually end up having anything to do with the 'attack'. This seems to me like a Lommy-wolf overreacting to what she perceives as suspicion on her packmate, and responding by agreeing that he's suspicious but also throwing the 'attack' into poor light. I'd like to, first of all, keep a closer look at their interactions, but also note that Lommy is now one of my top suspicions.

Lottie - seems maybe the worst this far (I KNOW, Lottie and Day1 suspicion, it's quite lame, but...), her points funnily resemble clutching at straws. Also, she merits people with stuff quite easily and weirdly (like me for contributing in my early posts).

It's Day One. There are no suspicions that won't seem like grasping at straws. If I'd been loudly proclaiming that someone was absolutely undeniably guilty, then the grasping at straws argument would hold water, but as it happens, I've been playfully poking and examining a group of people who posted eerily similar and abnormal rants. I didn't say you contributed, or anything nearly so concrete. I said your post made sense because of when it was posted, and that, looking at the context, was even one of the more substantial posts - one of the more, not actually substantial.

[Thinlómien]

Uggh, I should wake up in less than 8h, so better quit ww now. I don't really have much to add - maybe just that I still think Lottie's comment about Pitch sounded like a "lookee, lookee, he made a slip!" and if someone agreed she'd be ready to go "exactly, that's what I said!" but if someone questioned her reasoning she'd be saying "I was just making fun of him". I'll be back well before the DL and vote then based on all the evidence that has piled up while I've been sleeping and attending my morning lecture...


edit: xed with Eönwë

[Pitchwife]

So I fell asleep after dinner and wake up when it's nearing bedtime. Good it's not DL yet.

Lommy, which of my points seem "weird" to you?

G55's outburst against Rikae feels pretty genuine to me, and I don't quite get what Boro thinks was so over-the-top about it - I mean, if she had the impression that Rikae was trying to suggest Lottie suspect her, being outraged is an understandable reaction; and as Rikae's post looks just like that on the surface, who's to blame her. (Only, knowing Rikae a bit, that would have been remarkably unsubtle.)

Originally Posted by G55 about Zil

Plus, if he's a wolf, I'd imagine he would have let the Alcolyte speculation run its course instead of jumping into the spotlight himself.

That's actually a good point. Wolves usually love discussing rules and technicalities rather than discussing people, they're great for talking a lot without saying much.

Legate, one thing I'd like to be clear about - if, as you say, you weren't accusing Zil when all this started, are you accusing him now or is your insistence merely scientific interest in his thought processes?

Originally Posted by Nog

Which immediately led me to think that his role as a Gondorian-wolfie was showing through...

You want to read up on the Corsairs of Umbar. We're the only pure Gondorians left - that rabble up north are just mudbloods.

Originally Posted by Nog

The second thing that bothered me there early on was him accusing both Rikae and Eönwë piling onto easy suspicion (the Legate - Zil thingy) when looking at their posts that clearly isn't the case.

Isn't it?

Originally Posted by Rikae #27

I agree with Legate on the importance of simply starting conversation [...] In that vein, I don't much care for Inzil and Bom's empty posts

Originally Posted by Eönwë #31

Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion.

How would you describe what's going on here?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nog

So she admits there was an attack but that her "poke" just didn't actually end up having anything to do with it?

No, what Lottie is saying is that Zil's post that followed hers didn't have anything to do with her poke/attack/whateveryouwannacallit, unlike Lommy had supposed.
FWIW, I was mildly annoyed by Lottie's failure to get my sarcasm, but I didn't think of it as an "attack" until Lommy, ironically, blew it up into one.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Lottie always seems suspicious on Day 1, so it's no surprise that she does now, but with the whole late meta-discussion comment I mentioned before as well as some of the other points people have brought against her, she seems worse than usual. But I don't know if a wolf would be so bold so early on.

In which way would you say has Lottie acted like a bold wolf? I fail to see where she's done anything particularly bold yet.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Pitch

Isn't it?

How would you describe what's going on here?

I'd describe them just as what they stand for.

So, Rikae is saying that Legate is right in stating that there should be conversation (defending the Acolyte discussion), and that she disagrees with the way Zil & Bom post empty posts (aka posts that don't get us any further, I guess?)

Eönwë is saying that he doesn't like the way Zil turned the Acolyte discussion into a meta discussion - whether that is true or false as I'm not sure it was Zil (or him alone) who turned the discussion off the Acolyte (or whether it was bad that Acolyte discussion finally ended).

But "piling onto easy suspicion in the Legate - Inzil case"? Nope.

To me those doing it are the ones who jump on it (the "controversy" between the two) and parrot things like "that is the interesting thing toDay" - implying that we should concentrate on them. That's "piling up" for me. Pointing at that discusiion as being the one to pay heed to (while ignoring other possibilities).

Some did do that, but I think not Rikae or Eönwë.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Isn't it?
How would you describe what's going on here?

Do I need to explain myself again? I didn't like the acolyte discussion because it meant everyone could hide under the veil of "This discussion is better than nothing, at least later we can look back on it" (see my earlier post). I'm still not sure what Inzil was getting at, but by reiterating his side so many times, he gave more justification for people to argue the side that already has general consensus, and so no, I didn't like that because it gives the wolves a place to hide.
Just because something doesn't automatically make him evil, it doesn't mean I have to like what he's doing, does it?
You can try to misrepresent my argument (twice) if you want, but I think it's clear in the context of the rest of my post that this is what I was getting at.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Eönwë is saying that he doesn't like the way Zil turned the Acolyte discussion into a meta discussion - whether that is true or false as I'm not sure it was Zil (or him alone) who turned the discussion off the Acolyte (or whether it was bad that Acolyte discussion finally ended).

Inzil made three posts that essentially said "Let's not talk about the Acolyte and focus on finding the wolves" while making no suggestions about how such a thing might be done. The actual Acolyte discussion is irrelevant.



Ironically, I'm really not liking the look of Inzil now. I didn't find his play suspicious before, just very weird, but now, not only has he not even attempted to explain his actions, he's tried to claim I'm suspicious for pointing them out.


I probably actually want to vote for Inzil now. Lottie on a Day 1 is a bad idea, and no one else actually seems lynch-worthy yet.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

A few small updates.

I have grown a bit more suspicious of Lommy - in particular, after her list. She has lots of those nothing-saying remarks about most people, and about some people (like e.g. Boro, sally or Greenie) she has the sort of notes which would well be used in the scheme "how to easily defend a packmate without making it seem obvious". Of course, it is now early and might be she does not have any sort of good suspects etc., and I know that such a list can sometimes come up just randomly out of genuine thinking. But I am just putting this under my watch.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Unless Legate is a baddie smelling an easy lynch. However, I do agree that others are more worrisome than he.

Well, I never said anything about accusation there, as far as I know. And most certainly not in the beginning, you of all should know since we were the ones talking - so I hope this is not attempt to make people suspect *me* or something.

Not that I require that answer, but you still completely avoid the question of what the Angband were you thinking when you kept saying "let's not ..., let's ...", yet not doing anything about it. I don't really require the answer, but it puzzles me and it puzzles me why are you not explaining it.

Apart from what I said about Lommy now, Greenie's vote made me look again at Boro. I must say there is something which I also find unsettling about him, but it is something different - mainly his sort of, hmm, apologetic tone in regards to other players. Like this:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I was actually going to tell Rikae, I don't think she's played with you before and your early posts are a standard G55. Granted, that means you would also do it as a wolf, but I appreciate the variety you bring to the table. How dragging and teeth-gritting would a village full of Legates, Nogs, and Boros be?

He does then raise some more critical points about Gal, like pondering her possible guilt etc, but overall his tone seems to be rather friendly and *uses dictionary* lenient. Indulgent. Benevolent. (Hope you get the point )

Also, a bit from the same post:

Although, I'd hardly say Legate and Inzil were as stubborn and aggressive as I was being with Agan, certainly as far as early day activity they will be getting the majority of the attention. Good observation, and what to make of it is the question. And now, add Greenie to the list of those who I'd prefer not to see lynched today.

That's also somewhat similar - the last sentence, I mean - he did that before toDay, of course yes, you can rule out people you don't want to lynch, but somehow this can have two edges... you can rule out people, but you can also be nicey-goodey to people... which somehow does not fit with Boro for me. Not this kind of behavior.

Originally Posted by Eruhen

Just poking in to correct a misconception: Eruhen is a he. Named Phil.

That's all.

Okay, my apologies, shall bear that in mind.

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

Arrrgh. Well, I've got nothing. Except . . . I don't like Greenie's vote; I really don't see what Boro has done to deserve a vote. Still, I'll not vote her until she can explain herself; it's entirely possible I'm missing something.

This also does not sit well with me. It's more like gut feeling, and sort of the "defensive" tone or what... "I don't like... it's possible I am missing..." But then again, really, with Bom it's difficult. I find it hard to analyze him when he posts generally rather short, unealaborative posts - which may have substance (and may even be spot on), but it is just harder to say if he is making stuff up and faking it or just speaking his mind, if you know what I mean...

EDIT: x-ed after Bom

[Galadriel55]

A leeeetle short update:

I would not want to see Zil lynched, as I said before. Can't see an Inzilawolf putting his neck in line like that.

Lommy relies heavily on the word "weird" in her impressions post, a word that I find terribly undescriptive. I doubt anyone has any strong impressions, but "weird" is too vague a way of phrasing it. That ticked my radar.

This may have been an impression left by the Lottie-suspicion, but she does feel odd. I'll try to be very careful and objective here, because looking at my slight apprehension from the side it could be an effect of some wolves muttering "Lottie is bad, go lynch her". And from what I know about WW games this isn't the first occurance of this either. I'm going to do my best to keep my ground and separate my own thoughts from the others' about Lottie.



Everyone else either said too little or the impression didn't stand out (you're all sensible and have some good points and no good/bad vibe that stands out, I won't list you all individually and repeat this).

[Rikae]

Greenie's vote for Boro looks more or less ok to me, precisely because it is so out-of-the-blue and gut-feelingish, if you get what I mean. Not to say that it's wabbit season or anything, but Greenie herself seems all right.

Eönwë is sort of blending into the background, and he seems to be doing it by hanging around in the thicket of meta-discussion, poking at multiple people while refraining from singling anyone out in a way that might attract too much attention. I'm going to keep my eye on him.

EDIT: X'd with a Nog.

[Eönwë]

Ok, I'm going to sleep now, and should be back in about 7/8 hours to vote.

I'm too tired to make a proper list, but here are some final thoughts:

Legate looks good to me now. He speaks sense and I agree with most of what he says.

I'm still confused about Inzil. Hopefully he'll explain what he was thinking earlier by the time I come back.

Nogrod makes me uncertain. I seem to remember his innocent self being more controversial and and attacking on Day 1, but maybe things have changed since I've been gone.

Greenie seems innocent enough. She makes good points and seems like she's trying to work for the innocents, so I'll trust her for now.

Lommy worries me a bit. I can never get a good read on her, but something in her posts makes me uneasy.

Boro also worries me. He's usually loud and talkative, but now he seems to be flitting in and out of the game in a way that seems almost non-commital. He hasn't spoken much yet though, so I can't judge him properly.

Bom is far under the radar.

G55 is impossible to read, but she seems innocent enough so far.

Pitch seems a bit self-conscious. Don't know whether this makes him look good or bad.

Rikae seems to be adopting her regular tone, and so far she seems clear and honest, so I'm liking her at the moment.

Lottie always seems suspicious on Day 1, so it's no surprise that she does now, but with the whole late meta-discussion comment I mentioned before as well as some of the other points people have brought against her, she seems worse than usual. But I don't know if a wolf would be so bold so early on.

Sally has said far too little for me to say anything about her.

I've never played with Eru, so, at least for today, I'm willing to give his "I'll just watch" the benefit of the doubt, even though it seems pretty bad.



Ok, so I was wrong. It has basically become a list.


edit: x-ed with Nog's last post and fixed spellings

[Nogrod]

Okay. I'm really confused with Inzil and I need to think and probably rethink before I write anything on him. But if you Inzil would like to explain, it would be fine.


But two short ones first.

I said earlier that Pitch was bothering me in the early game and I went back to have a look. And I think I know what it was, even if I'm a bit less sure of it's merit.

He opened with bantering in IC

you southron Barbarians think you can tackle Gondor? Pathetic. You'll need all the help you can get from the Dark Lord.

Which immediately led me to think that his role as a Gondorian-wolfie was showing through... coupled with the odd way of saying that we "manage to kill our seer" in the same post.

Well after a check I realised that his character is from Umbar so north from Harad and the IC is correct. And reading Lommy point out the sarcasm in his point about us managing to kill our seer opened my eyes to that too, and I find it hard to read it otherwise anymore.

The second thing that bothered me there early on was him accusing both Rikae and Eönwë piling onto easy suspicion (the Legate - Zil thingy) when looking at their posts that clearly isn't the case. And this actually bothers me still.

So part of my initial bad feelings about Pitch were clearly unfounded, but part I think still call for attention and I need to think about it more before the Day ends.



What bothers me about Boro is the way he painted G55 suspicious. To me her strong reaction to Rikae's question for Lottie looked very sincere indeed (as I said already back there). So Boro's attack looked to me like a wolf noticing a possible pray who has made herself vulnerable, and jumping for it. It's hard to see evil in a game, but it felt like a malvolent intent there.

Now what Greenie said about him walking away from a suspicion by ignoring it and "taking Greenie out from vote list", and what Legate said about his overall over-lenient manner are points I think merit considering as well.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I have grown a bit more suspicious of Lommy - in particular, after her list. She has lots of those nothing-saying remarks about most people, and about some people (like e.g. Boro, sally or Greenie) she has the sort of notes which would well be used in the scheme "how to easily defend a packmate without making it seem obvious". Of course, it is now early and might be she does not have any sort of good suspects etc., and I know that such a list can sometimes come up just randomly out of genuine thinking. But I am just putting this under my watch.

Apart from all that, I think Lommy's suspicion of Lottie based on her comments about Pitch is a reach.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, I never said anything about accusation there, as far as I know. And most certainly not in the beginning, you of all should know since we were the ones talking - so I hope this is not attempt to make people suspect *me* or something.

I think there are better ones to suspect than you. Steve comes to mind.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Not that I require that answer, but you still completely avoid the question of what the Angband were you thinking when you kept saying "let's not ..., let's ...", yet not doing anything about it. I don't really require the answer, but it puzzles me and it puzzles me why are you not explaining it.

All right, here it is: The discussion itself regarding the Acolyte wasn't, in my opinion, all that productive. We just don't have a lot of hard evidence, so I didn't want that to just go on and on all Day. What I was waiting for was reactions to our interplay over the matter. That's useful.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

This also does not sit well with me. It's more like gut feeling, and sort of the "defensive" tone or what... "I don't like... it's possible I am missing..." But then again, really, with Bom it's difficult. I find it hard to analyze him when he posts generally rather short, unealaborative posts - which may have substance (and may even be spot on), but it is just harder to say if he is making stuff up and faking it or just speaking his mind, if you know what I mean...

It's no defense, but Bom, evil or good, pretty much does this every time. It's gotten him lynched many a time.

x/d with Rikae