TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

A few small updates.

I have grown a bit more suspicious of Lommy - in particular, after her list. She has lots of those nothing-saying remarks about most people, and about some people (like e.g. Boro, sally or Greenie) she has the sort of notes which would well be used in the scheme "how to easily defend a packmate without making it seem obvious". Of course, it is now early and might be she does not have any sort of good suspects etc., and I know that such a list can sometimes come up just randomly out of genuine thinking. But I am just putting this under my watch.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Unless Legate is a baddie smelling an easy lynch. However, I do agree that others are more worrisome than he.

Well, I never said anything about accusation there, as far as I know. And most certainly not in the beginning, you of all should know since we were the ones talking - so I hope this is not attempt to make people suspect *me* or something.

Not that I require that answer, but you still completely avoid the question of what the Angband were you thinking when you kept saying "let's not ..., let's ...", yet not doing anything about it. I don't really require the answer, but it puzzles me and it puzzles me why are you not explaining it.

Apart from what I said about Lommy now, Greenie's vote made me look again at Boro. I must say there is something which I also find unsettling about him, but it is something different - mainly his sort of, hmm, apologetic tone in regards to other players. Like this:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I was actually going to tell Rikae, I don't think she's played with you before and your early posts are a standard G55. Granted, that means you would also do it as a wolf, but I appreciate the variety you bring to the table. How dragging and teeth-gritting would a village full of Legates, Nogs, and Boros be?

He does then raise some more critical points about Gal, like pondering her possible guilt etc, but overall his tone seems to be rather friendly and *uses dictionary* lenient. Indulgent. Benevolent. (Hope you get the point )

Also, a bit from the same post:

Although, I'd hardly say Legate and Inzil were as stubborn and aggressive as I was being with Agan, certainly as far as early day activity they will be getting the majority of the attention. Good observation, and what to make of it is the question. And now, add Greenie to the list of those who I'd prefer not to see lynched today.

That's also somewhat similar - the last sentence, I mean - he did that before toDay, of course yes, you can rule out people you don't want to lynch, but somehow this can have two edges... you can rule out people, but you can also be nicey-goodey to people... which somehow does not fit with Boro for me. Not this kind of behavior.

Originally Posted by Eruhen

Just poking in to correct a misconception: Eruhen is a he. Named Phil.

That's all.

Okay, my apologies, shall bear that in mind.

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

Arrrgh. Well, I've got nothing. Except . . . I don't like Greenie's vote; I really don't see what Boro has done to deserve a vote. Still, I'll not vote her until she can explain herself; it's entirely possible I'm missing something.

This also does not sit well with me. It's more like gut feeling, and sort of the "defensive" tone or what... "I don't like... it's possible I am missing..." But then again, really, with Bom it's difficult. I find it hard to analyze him when he posts generally rather short, unealaborative posts - which may have substance (and may even be spot on), but it is just harder to say if he is making stuff up and faking it or just speaking his mind, if you know what I mean...

EDIT: x-ed after Bom

[Galadriel55]

A leeeetle short update:

I would not want to see Zil lynched, as I said before. Can't see an Inzilawolf putting his neck in line like that.

Lommy relies heavily on the word "weird" in her impressions post, a word that I find terribly undescriptive. I doubt anyone has any strong impressions, but "weird" is too vague a way of phrasing it. That ticked my radar.

This may have been an impression left by the Lottie-suspicion, but she does feel odd. I'll try to be very careful and objective here, because looking at my slight apprehension from the side it could be an effect of some wolves muttering "Lottie is bad, go lynch her". And from what I know about WW games this isn't the first occurance of this either. I'm going to do my best to keep my ground and separate my own thoughts from the others' about Lottie.



Everyone else either said too little or the impression didn't stand out (you're all sensible and have some good points and no good/bad vibe that stands out, I won't list you all individually and repeat this).

[Rikae]

Greenie's vote for Boro looks more or less ok to me, precisely because it is so out-of-the-blue and gut-feelingish, if you get what I mean. Not to say that it's wabbit season or anything, but Greenie herself seems all right.

Eönwë is sort of blending into the background, and he seems to be doing it by hanging around in the thicket of meta-discussion, poking at multiple people while refraining from singling anyone out in a way that might attract too much attention. I'm going to keep my eye on him.

EDIT: X'd with a Nog.

[Nogrod]

Lottie then. (I'm checking people that I've had some bad feelings about one by one - if my method of picking just a few people at the time does seem a bit odd)

She admits her "manage to kill the seer" -note was semi-banter, but the way she phrases it looks interesting.

It was one semi-banter, playful poke post and one post that didn't actually end up having anything to do with the 'attack'

So she admits there was an attack but that her "poke" just didn't actually end up having anything to do with it? Okay. This might be a linguistic issue (non-native speaker here) and you should correct me if I'm wrong, but to me that phrasing looks pretty odd.

Her rant against random-vote talk and the implication that the ones doing it are just filling space with nothing to say while trying to look helpful is clearly misguided for two reasons (read these Lottie)
1) That talk needs to be made in every game so that random votes don't happen. And it needs to be stated in no unplain terms. After it is done and the general mood is outspoken, no wolf wishes to dare a random vote. It's called "performative use of language" in linguistics and philosophy of language: saying things make them happen. Not saying it loudly enough leaves room for different behaviours (and sadly I'm not convinced our rant was enough for no one to try a declared random vote but well, we'l see about that).
2) Of all people you say that Legate and I are the ones who try to hunker down and stay ambivalent and just fill space with saying nothing! Really?
Really?

And well, like Eönwë pointed out, it seems pretty funny she is unhappy with people filling space with "self-evidencies" and does it herself adding the N'th explanation why the Acolyte discussion is okay... But well, most of us are guilty of that this Day. (It's been a weird Day in that. )

But something I feel uneasy with her is in her post where she answers Rikae about G55. It is kind of, how would you say it, like a child who wants to play nice for mom even if she hasn't been good lately. When mom asks, she immediately answers - finds an answer she hasn't herself picked up before but is kind of "good enough" to be an answer, and gives it just like that. And then mom pats her head and doesn't ask nasty questions any more.

Does anyone get what I mean?

Also, I think she is over-reacting to Lommy's suspicions, to put it mildly

If I'd been loudly proclaiming that someone was absolutely undeniably guilty, then the grasping at straws argument would hold water

But like Inzil, I find her first and foremost acting strangely. In Lottie's case that would mean being very jumpy at times and at the other time poking here and there...


I see Inzil has posted... enough right now, back soon.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Greenie's vote for Boro looks more or less ok to me, precisely because it is so out-of-the-blue and gut-feelingish, if you get what I mean. Not to say that it's wabbit season or anything, but Greenie herself seems all right.

Yeah, not exactly happy that acknowledging a person's good observation makes you too nice to not be evil, but it doesn't look like a bad/wolfy vote.

Originally Posted by G55

Lommy relies heavily on the word "weird" in her impressions post, a word that I find terribly undescriptive. I doubt anyone has any strong impressions, but "weird" is too vague a way of phrasing it. That ticked my radar.

Weird is a pretty common Lommyism. I know, because I've harped on her before to stop using it if she's suspecting someone.

Originally Posted by G55

This may have been an impression left by the Lottie-suspicion, but she does feel odd.

(bold my emphasis).

See my point? It's impossible to avoid using weird/odd/strange to describe unusual/suspicious behavior.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

What bothers me about Boro is the way he painted G55 suspicious. To me her strong reaction to Rikae's question for Lottie looked very sincere indeed (as I said already back there). So Boro's attack looked to me like a wolf noticing a possible pray who has made herself vulnerable, and jumping for it.

Well. Didn't look genuine to me. And perhaps I shouldn't look at it through my eyes, but I've done the same thing time and time again when I've been a wolf. Get too dramatic over the slightest of things. Not that G55 was faking being angry, but playing up being angry to hopefully get suspicion off her. As if her honor had been impugned. I've literally done the same thing, indignicantly objecting to people beating around the bush..."If you suspect me then suspect me!" stuff.

And her defense for the rant comes dow to semantics, not liking the way Rikae phrased the question to Lottie. Now tell me if you think overly-dramatic reactions to stuff like word definitions and the way questions are phrased is genuine?

Edit: Crossed since Inzil's post #72.

[Rikae]

Haha, I just realized I mistook a coyote for a wabbit... that could be a dangerous mistake!

[Pomegranate]

Blood! Panic!. She faints, and it takes this amount of time for her to be waken up by the support of smelling salts and one particularly handsome soldier who has no role in this game whatsoever. She leaves him hoping for something that will never happen while she goes to hunt for spies.

...that is, Real Life will probably make (and has already made) toDay an extremely inactive one for me, apologies for that. With a lot of new players (new to me, that is) it would take a lot more time than I have to make any profound analyses about people. However, to share some gut feelings that were called for:

I agree with Boro seeming slightly less aggressive and energetic than the last time I played with him, enough to seem non-usual. Hence I feel that Greenie's vote was understandable and that makes her send positive vibes for me. Also this kind of non-explained but apparently with some reason behind it -vote seems rather like her.

Lottie seems more productive now than when I've experienced her as a wolf, so this is an opposite case to Boro's.

Love to Nogrod for

It's called "performative use of language" in linguistics and philosophy of language: saying things make them happen. Not saying it loudly enough leaves room for different behaviours (and sadly I'm not convinced our rant was enough for no one to try a declared random vote but well, we'l see about that).

, this relatively new linguistics student got all excited about that point. I think that sounded genuine, though I haven't played with this active Nogrod and I'm assuming he's just the same when he's a wolf. Just as convincing, that is. And I actually do think that there was enough discussion on random votes so that any will now seem relatively suspicious.

G55 jumps, but it seems genuine and I won't hold it against her this time, realising it's probably pretty typical of her.

That is all I've got for now, I'm afraid. Will try to make my way back enough before the deadline so that I'll avoid last-minute votes and still can actually read over things more carefully.

edit. x/ed with Nogrod

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I've done the same thing time and time again when I've been a wolf. Get too dramatic over the slightest of things.
...
Now tell me if you think overly-dramatic reactions to stuff like word definitions and the way questions are phrased is genuine?

That depends a lot on who is doing it, don't you think? If the phantom tried it, I'd not turn half of my ear to him, but if Mith did it, I would be fairly certain it's true.

[Nogrod]

I'm off to bed as well...

I hope there will be a lot of discussion during the night here, especially by those who have been quiet or enigmatic thus far. The DL for me (and other Finns) is 2PM so as I'm on vacation I should have time to both read and take part nicely before it.

Be active.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Lottie always seems suspicious on Day 1, so it's no surprise that she does now, but with the whole late meta-discussion comment I mentioned before as well as some of the other points people have brought against her, she seems worse than usual.

No. Just no. This happens every game. I don't mind the being suspected easily, I've gotten used to that - but if I had a kitten for every time someone says "she's always suspicious, I know that...but she's more suspicious than usual this time"...let's just say my allergies would be killing me.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

1) That talk needs to be made in every game so that random votes don't happen.

Then why isn't it? I wouldn't have even noticed it if it were said every game. It would just be normal. Part of the reason it's so odd-looking is that it is, in fact, abnormal. Just because it 'needs to be said', according to you (which I disagree with, by the way - if a bunch of people post giant blocks of angry text about not randomly voting every game, no one will read them after the first few times. It will cease to have any meaning whatsoever) does not mean I am forbidden to comment on it when, for the first time in my memory, not just one but three people post about it.

And it needs to be stated in no unplain terms. After it is done and the general mood is outspoken, no wolf wishes to dare a random vote. It's called "performative use of language" in linguistics and philosophy of language: saying things make them happen. Not saying it loudly enough leaves room for different behaviours (and sadly I'm not convinced our rant was enough for no one to try a declared random vote but well, we'l see about that).

No. I disagree. Now, I'm not a linguistics and philosophy of language expert, but I do know from experience that just because you say something loud enough doesn't make it happen. Yes, if everyone here posted and said that, no one would random vote, but that's just because everyone would have to agree to post. As it is, clearly some people don't agree, because people do random vote. Ranting loudly won't make them change their minds. It'll just make people skim your posts because your rants are obnoxious.

2) Of all people you say that Legate and I are the ones who try to hunker down and stay ambivalent and just fill space with saying nothing! Really?
Really?

People like Bom and Sally are basically expected to post little to nothing of substance on Day One. You and Legate are not. When people do what I'm not used to them doing, I pay attention more than when they do what I am used to them doing.

But something I feel uneasy with her is in her post where she answers Rikae about G55. It is kind of, how would you say it, like a child who wants to play nice for mom even if she hasn't been good lately. When mom asks, she immediately answers - finds an answer she hasn't herself picked up before but is kind of "good enough" to be an answer, and gives it just like that. And then mom pats her head and doesn't ask nasty questions any more.

But I had noticed it. I just hadn't posted about it yet. When Rikae asked, I figured I might as well flesh out my concern about the post.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

See my point? It's impossible to avoid using weird/odd/strange to describe unusual/suspicious behavior.

I know, I use them too. But to use the same one like 5 times in the same list? All these people can't feel exactly the same to you, can they?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Be active.

Yessir.

I have ~2hours before bedtime, and I have little work left, so I can participate a bit more actively... possibly. If I don't procrastinate.

[Galadriel55]

It's time for me to vote, and I really don't know who to vote for. And my vote will not be random, much as I'm tempted to just throw die.

I don't like some of the Lottie-suspicion, but it's too late now for me to start pushing and probing into it. Also, the same people who suspected Lottie made valid reasonable points.

Boro really is being nice. When I played with Borowolf he was not particularly nice (no, you weren't mean, you were just you ), so I can't say that his manner points to lupinity. Maybe he just decided out of the blue to mend his ways.

Can't say I suspect him, but Legate is right about the change in the manner.

The only other person that is closer to being a suspect is Lommy. I've said very little about her, but there has been some talk about her with which I agree. (the only bit of which I don't like is that she made a big deal out of an unexistent attack, which I think was pure misunderstanding on her part.)

During the Day I decided whom I'm not voting for. I don't know who I will vote for. Between Lommy and Boro (both of which, coincidentally, have votes) I am leaning more towards Lommy. My uneasiness with her comes from the content of what she said, whereas with Boro it is with how he says it. Yeah, I'll call that my final decision.

Vote comming in a few minutes. I want to wait as long as I can before leaving off.

Edit: xed since #92

[Inziladun]

Can't leave it any longer.

++Eönwë

Good luck, folks.

[satansaloser2005]

Wait a tick. The DL is at six? That's....man, that's going to make me want to get up early before work and try to chat some more. I thought it was at two for some reason. Still, I best just vote now(ish) and go to bed.

This has been the indecisive Sally post for this particular five minutes. I'll be voting shortly, so if anyone's around and has suggestions for me, I'd love to hear them.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

It seems that I cannot tell time
For really, I thought the deadline
Was just after two
Not when I hit snooze
And yet toward my bed I shall climb

[satansaloser2005]

Of my previously mentioned top options, I don't think Bom will go anywhere toDay, and I'm willing to give Rikae the benefit of the doubt, mostly because she was involved in the shenanigans earlier toDay and thus is confusing to read at the moment. (Also, I'm tired, so nyah.) I'm following my gut on this one, though I will by no means dissuade people from lynching Pitch in my absence.

I, however, will be voting for the last wolf in London. Well, hopefully.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

Though Rikae I do not believe
I give her and Bom a reprieve
For it is well-known
As Fea has shown
It's more fun to find rhymes for
++Steve


EDIT: x'd with Rikae's vote

[Eönwë]

Ok, I'm going to sleep now, and should be back in about 7/8 hours to vote.

I'm too tired to make a proper list, but here are some final thoughts:

Legate looks good to me now. He speaks sense and I agree with most of what he says.

I'm still confused about Inzil. Hopefully he'll explain what he was thinking earlier by the time I come back.

Nogrod makes me uncertain. I seem to remember his innocent self being more controversial and and attacking on Day 1, but maybe things have changed since I've been gone.

Greenie seems innocent enough. She makes good points and seems like she's trying to work for the innocents, so I'll trust her for now.

Lommy worries me a bit. I can never get a good read on her, but something in her posts makes me uneasy.

Boro also worries me. He's usually loud and talkative, but now he seems to be flitting in and out of the game in a way that seems almost non-commital. He hasn't spoken much yet though, so I can't judge him properly.

Bom is far under the radar.

G55 is impossible to read, but she seems innocent enough so far.

Pitch seems a bit self-conscious. Don't know whether this makes him look good or bad.

Rikae seems to be adopting her regular tone, and so far she seems clear and honest, so I'm liking her at the moment.

Lottie always seems suspicious on Day 1, so it's no surprise that she does now, but with the whole late meta-discussion comment I mentioned before as well as some of the other points people have brought against her, she seems worse than usual. But I don't know if a wolf would be so bold so early on.

Sally has said far too little for me to say anything about her.

I've never played with Eru, so, at least for today, I'm willing to give his "I'll just watch" the benefit of the doubt, even though it seems pretty bad.



Ok, so I was wrong. It has basically become a list.


edit: x-ed with Nog's last post and fixed spellings

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Boro also worries me. He's usually loud and talkative, but now he seems to be flitting in and out of the game in a way that seems almost non-commital. He hasn't spoken much yet though, so I can't judge him properly.

You ever have one of those days where it feels like you can't remember what you've been doing all day? That's been me today...like I swear I've kept up-to-date on all the replies, and by Day 1 standards it appears moderately productive, yet...I haven't the faintest clue what the heck I've been reading. Nothing is sinking in, it's as if I'm reading words but not complete sentences with thoughts and ideas. Probably why I've looked so disconnected and non-commital, and I can't do anything except say "you're right, I'm not being me."

I'll be up for the next 2-ish hours, so will go back and read through it again, and will have to vote within that time too.

Edit: crossed with Legate

[Loslote]

++Lommy

Because of her list post, overreaction to the 'suspicion that wasn't' against Pitch, and stretching her points in general. She's my top suspect, and I'm not positive I'll be online again before DL.

[Nogrod]

Okay. I'm really confused with Inzil and I need to think and probably rethink before I write anything on him. But if you Inzil would like to explain, it would be fine.


But two short ones first.

I said earlier that Pitch was bothering me in the early game and I went back to have a look. And I think I know what it was, even if I'm a bit less sure of it's merit.

He opened with bantering in IC

you southron Barbarians think you can tackle Gondor? Pathetic. You'll need all the help you can get from the Dark Lord.

Which immediately led me to think that his role as a Gondorian-wolfie was showing through... coupled with the odd way of saying that we "manage to kill our seer" in the same post.

Well after a check I realised that his character is from Umbar so north from Harad and the IC is correct. And reading Lommy point out the sarcasm in his point about us managing to kill our seer opened my eyes to that too, and I find it hard to read it otherwise anymore.

The second thing that bothered me there early on was him accusing both Rikae and Eönwë piling onto easy suspicion (the Legate - Zil thingy) when looking at their posts that clearly isn't the case. And this actually bothers me still.

So part of my initial bad feelings about Pitch were clearly unfounded, but part I think still call for attention and I need to think about it more before the Day ends.



What bothers me about Boro is the way he painted G55 suspicious. To me her strong reaction to Rikae's question for Lottie looked very sincere indeed (as I said already back there). So Boro's attack looked to me like a wolf noticing a possible pray who has made herself vulnerable, and jumping for it. It's hard to see evil in a game, but it felt like a malvolent intent there.

Now what Greenie said about him walking away from a suspicion by ignoring it and "taking Greenie out from vote list", and what Legate said about his overall over-lenient manner are points I think merit considering as well.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I have grown a bit more suspicious of Lommy - in particular, after her list. She has lots of those nothing-saying remarks about most people, and about some people (like e.g. Boro, sally or Greenie) she has the sort of notes which would well be used in the scheme "how to easily defend a packmate without making it seem obvious". Of course, it is now early and might be she does not have any sort of good suspects etc., and I know that such a list can sometimes come up just randomly out of genuine thinking. But I am just putting this under my watch.

Apart from all that, I think Lommy's suspicion of Lottie based on her comments about Pitch is a reach.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, I never said anything about accusation there, as far as I know. And most certainly not in the beginning, you of all should know since we were the ones talking - so I hope this is not attempt to make people suspect *me* or something.

I think there are better ones to suspect than you. Steve comes to mind.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Not that I require that answer, but you still completely avoid the question of what the Angband were you thinking when you kept saying "let's not ..., let's ...", yet not doing anything about it. I don't really require the answer, but it puzzles me and it puzzles me why are you not explaining it.

All right, here it is: The discussion itself regarding the Acolyte wasn't, in my opinion, all that productive. We just don't have a lot of hard evidence, so I didn't want that to just go on and on all Day. What I was waiting for was reactions to our interplay over the matter. That's useful.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

This also does not sit well with me. It's more like gut feeling, and sort of the "defensive" tone or what... "I don't like... it's possible I am missing..." But then again, really, with Bom it's difficult. I find it hard to analyze him when he posts generally rather short, unealaborative posts - which may have substance (and may even be spot on), but it is just harder to say if he is making stuff up and faking it or just speaking his mind, if you know what I mean...

It's no defense, but Bom, evil or good, pretty much does this every time. It's gotten him lynched many a time.

x/d with Rikae