TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Nerwen, was Eruhen modfired (perhaps upon request), or is his death really a mystery?

Not telling.

[Pomegranate]

To me, it would seem from the narration, that Eruhen's death was indeed a mystery, and if that be the case, perhaps linked to the acolyte. Leaving it open like that would suggest that there's something going on in the palace that we don't know about, and so far, acolyte is the most obvious guess to that.

Looking into Rikae is something that definitely needs to be done. However, we should also look into Bom's lynch yesterday. True, there was reason enough for any annoyed goodie to vote for him, but it is pretty certain that there's wolves there as well, excited about the easy ordo-lynch. The votes from yesterday, in order of casting:

Greenie -> Boro
Lottie ->Lommy
Bom ->Bom
G55->Lommy (2)
Inzil->Eonwe
Rikae->Inzil
Sally->Eonwe
Eru->Lommy (3)
Shasta->Bom (2)
Legate->Bom (3)
Nogrod->Bom (4)
Eonwe->Bom (5)
Lommy->Bom (6)
Pitch->Eonwe (2)
Pom->Legate

Now, as everyone kept saying yesterNight (can you put it like that?) Shasta was the one to start the actual bandwaggon against Bom, after suspecting around. However, it's worth noticing that he wasn't the first one to suggest it, even though he was the first to actually give his vote to Bom. First one was Nogrod.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

If anyone is willing to help Bom with his suicide I'd be happy to lend a hand there.

So, we ranted too little about these no-trace votes (or we should have made the rant wider). I mean a self vote is as bad as a declared random vote in that they result in the same: there's no way of saying whom the person really wished to vote for (or whom he didn't want to vote) - or whom he faked wishing to vote for or not to vote for. Declared intentions concerning one's votes + the votes themselves are the bread and butter of this game, voting randomly or self-voting is effectively denying others the info. And thus something the wolves would love to hide in if it was looked on as having no consequences. Therefore I'm actually half-serious in proposing we lynch Bom toDay.

The other thing that makes me half-serious with it, is what Bom has actually posted.

(#113)

During his post he actually kind of talked himself out of it, but somehow it seemed more that he was giving the bait and hoping someone would go with it. And when Shasta did decide that he wants Bom lynched, Nogrod started to show his uncertainty, but then decided to go for Bom when there was a lot of people after him. His vote was the one which raised Bom’s votes higher than Lommy’s.

Continuing in a bit, this was the most striking thing for me, now hunting for more.

x/ed with everyone after Nerwen's #160

[Pitchwife]

Three of us dead already, and the hunter among them? Blargh.

I'll be getting to Rikae in a moment, but first things first: that was one of the most useless D1 lynches ever.

It's not like I can't empathize to some degree with being annoyed by Bom and wanting to set an example, but what exactly was that supposed to accomplish? I mean, you said it yourselves:

Originally Posted by Legate

Bom's death won't, after all, show much (given that his interactions with people are... close to nil).

and

Originally Posted by Nog

The chances he's a wolf are what the pure chances are 4/16

and you still decide he's the best lynch choice? After ranting at such length against random votes? How was picking Bom any better?

Yes, I know, lynch a submarine on D1 if there's no better choice, and if it has to be done, better now than later, but after all of yesterDay's controversy, was there really no better choice?

Or was there a wolf getting heat who had to be saved?

Originally Posted by Pom

Shasta was the one to start the actual bandwaggon against Bom, after suspecting around. However, it's worth noticing that he wasn't the first one to suggest it, even though he was the first to actually give his vote to Bom. First one was Nogrod.

That's actually a good find.

Originally Posted by Pom

His vote was the one which raised Bom’s votes higher than Lommy’s.

No, your vote list is confused there; Eönwë's vote was the fourth for Bom and came before Nog's.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

first things first: that was one of the most useless D1 lynches ever.

The owl of Minerva flies after dusk... It's always easy to be wise on hindsight.

On another issue, why is it that I suggested lynching Bom a find (Pom) or a good find (Pitch)? *Bom-Pom*

That's not exactly a secret. And I think I speculated on that possibility even earlier. And as Pom says correctly, I almost talked myself out of it, but then the voting kind of did the choice for me.

I was willing to discuss with the people around then (about 15 minutes before the DL or something) of the possibilities between Bom, Boro and G55 but had to take a phone-call from my colleague and when I came back people were already voting for Bom which kind of made it futile to vote differently as I had nothing against Lommy.

Just go and check.

Okay. Off now for a while.

[Pitchwife]

Now, Rikae.

An interesting detail is where she says

Originally Posted by Rikae #42

it may be more logical to leave Inzil alone for toDay precisely because he has made himself a target.

(underlining mine). Did someone read that as a hunter hint?

Her response to G55's tantrum actually sounds to me like she was satisfied with the response she got ("...I did").

Although she suggested leaving Zil be, she ended up voting him; he was clearly her #1 suspect and thus, I think, her most likely hunting pick - which makes me doubt that he had a hand in killing her, it would have been rather suicidal.

I'm confused by the whole wabbit/coyote thing. The coyote looks like a reference to Boro's avie, but what's a wabbit anyway? *googles*

Originally Posted by wikipedia

A wabbit is a type of self-replicating computer program. Unlike viruses, wabbits do not infect host programs or documents. Unlike worms, wabbits do not use network capabilities of computers to spread. Instead, a wabbit repeatedly replicates itself on a local computer. Wabbits can be programmed to have (malicious) side effects.[1] An example of a wabbit is a fork bomb. The name "wabbit" is probably derived from Elmer Fudd's derhotic pronunciation of 'rabbit' in the Warner Brothers cartoons that featured him and Bugs Bunny. Like rabbits, these programs have an ability to multiply quickly.

So, a sort of malware, apparently. Could be code for wolves? Or was she referring to the cartoons only (IIRC, Boro's coyote figures in those too, right?)? What the blazes is she trying to tell us here?

[Inziladun]

First off, I'm amused by people yesterDay commenting on me being "weird". For me, that's normal.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

So the alcolyte is some kind of werebear. *sigh* May the victims of the Night's terror rest in peace.

If so, that makes it a lot tougher. Bears are always harder to spot, since they have no loyalty to anyone, and have a vested interest in killing wolves. I don't see much we can do about it, at any rate.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And then there is this odd thing about wabbits and coyotes & liking Greenie's vote on Boro - which whatever it means seems to suggest something about Boro.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I'm confused by the whole wabbit/coyote thing. The coyote looks like a reference to Boro's avie, but what's a wabbit anyway? *googles*

So, a sort of malware, apparently. Could be code for wolves? Or was she referring to the cartoons only (IIRC, Boro's coyote figures in those too, right?)? What the blazes is she trying to tell us here?

Yes, Elmer Fudd hunts wabbits, but the Coyote hunts the Roadrunner. Was Rikae trying to bait the wolves into thinking she was the Seer, who had dreamed Boro? But that would have meant she would have hunted Boro, and obviously, he's still with us. I don't know.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And then there’s Legate. Last night, I was convinced enough by Shasta’s notifications that I did start suspecting him more than anyone else. I’m not too convinced about Shasta either, but he did go through the messages pretty throughoutly, and especially since I had no previous opinion on Legate, I felt it was worth checking out. And Legate, unlike some others mentioned, did have a habit of sticking into his opinions. First this whole issue with Inzil, which to me seems more his making than Inzil’s. He keeps repeating the same point over and over, and over an issue after all as minor as one “This is not what we’re supposed to be doing, let’s do something else”. I can’t see that comment of Inzil's as too fishy. It feels like something all of us must've done at some point, giving a relatively useless message at the beginning of the first day.

After all Legate's focus on me yesterDay. he went and voted for Bom. So did Eönwë, who had previously said I would be his likely vote, and offered no reason for voting Bom, other than he didn't want to vote Lommy. Why didn't either of them vote for me, instead of going after Bom? Yes, believe me, I know Bom's antics like that can be frustrating. It still looks like a very easy bandwagon, though.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

That being said, I don’t say I’d trust Boro or G55 either. But Legate is way more suspicious, Boro seems just not like himself, and I haven't yet given much thought to G55 yet.

Boro is certainly not his usual aggressive wolf-hunting self. What that means, and whether there is an RL factor, I'm not sure.

Steve and Legate worry me as well.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Now, as everyone kept saying yesterNight (can you put it like that?) Shasta was the one to start the actual bandwaggon against Bom, after suspecting around. However, it's worth noticing that he wasn't the first one to suggest it, even though he was the first to actually give his vote to Bom. First one was Nogrod.
(#113)

During his post he actually kind of talked himself out of it, but somehow it seemed more that he was giving the bait and hoping someone would go with it.

I wouldn't call it "baiting". That's rather normal - and I think it does not sound like "serious wish to lynch Bom", rather really just "anger ventilation", which is understandable.

Though some things about his willingness to flip etc. have merit, I would not lynch him purely based on this. This particular thing is rather understandable as normal reaction, I would say.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And then there’s Legate. (...) First this whole issue with Inzil, which to me seems more his making than Inzil’s. He keeps repeating the same point over and over, and over an issue after all as minor as one “This is not what we’re supposed to be doing, let’s do something else”. I can’t see that comment of Inzil's as too fishy. It feels like something all of us must've done at some point, giving a relatively useless message at the beginning of the first day.

Now wait a second, I never said "fishy". It was never a suspicion, mind you. I get the feeling the whole Legate-Zil debate is getting completely out of its original meaning in people's interpretation and reinterpretation of it. Zil says the same thing (see below) by talking about me "suspecting" him, but I never did! (okay, later during the day I did a bit, but only because of his reaction, certainly NOT because of the matter of the fact that Zil said "let's hunt wolves instead of talking about acolyte") So to put this back to its proper lines, what it was, in other words: yes, the Legate-Inzil issue took a lot of attention during the Day, but it did NOT have anything to do with suspicion. Also I think if other people hadn't started discussing it so vehemently themselves, it would have been just an episode concerning CLARIFICATION of one's actions (not suspicion!!). Also, note that my continuous questions to Inzil were only one issue, one remark at the fringe (in the matter of importance) of my posts, which otherwise were talking about something else.

So repeating this for the last time, the issue was (narrated as I saw it back then): Zil requested from others to start "hunting wolves" yet didn't act on it himself, so I questioned that behavior, he did not react, I asked him again, he replied with the same line as in start which did not explain anything (at least to me back then), and so on, back and forth something like four times. I kept asking him only because he had not answered my question. Now he has clarified it to me by the end of yesterDay, so we're somewhere else now. But as for the origin of the discussion, what I just said.

So as to this,

Originally Posted by Inziladun

After all Legate's focus on me yesterDay. he went and voted for Bom.

There was maybe "focus", but never suspicion as strong to vote you. I had better suspects than Bom, but you were not among them. I could have voted Boro, for instance - later I basically decided that it's still fine to lynch Bom, especially on first Day, and Pitch, you have in fact summed it up:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Yes, I know, lynch a submarine on D1 if there's no better choice, and if it has to be done, better now than later,

That's basically it, I guess. This argument eventually prevailed in my mind as in the others', probably, over the anyway uncertain suspicions we might have had (and a large part of it was probably when it got rolling, which was probably mostly my doing, I humbly confess, the decisive moment - but really, I don't regret it, even in retrospect. Of course killing a Wolf would have been much better, but for Day 1, at that moment, it was a right choice, I would have probably done it again). The main basis of my vote was indeed this "if not toDay, then never" and "we can still lynch Boro tomorrow".

Which is, btw, what I shall be looking at toDay, along with Gal, as I promised.

Speaking of this all, it of course does not rule out the interior motives of some people who voted Bom, like Pitch said:

Originally Posted by Pitch

Or was there a wolf getting heat who had to be saved?

The question is who would that be - Lommy is the most logical option; the other one something like Boro or Gal or Lottie or whoknowswhat else was teoretically threatened...

But the thing is, it was basically really orchestrated by Shasta. At least from my POV, if he had not pointed it out so decisively, I wouldn't have considered voting Bom, most likely. And so basically the only logical explanation would be that Shastawolf would come up with this brilliant scheme to turn the whole village away from voting some fellow Wolf by proposing a completely new lynch. It would have been brilliant scheme, hats off to Roy Harper, but somehow I'd find it really really really bold and such things don't usually happen.

EDIT: x-ed with Boro... ugh, I've been writing this for an hour (okay, it was interrupted several times for minutes... but now I have to do also other stuff, so shall be back later)

[Nogrod]

Just a few thoughts for now.

Thinking about it again has led me to this kind of thoughts:
- Rikae was a logical hunter.
- As can be read from the tally, Eruhen was an ordo and thus not hunted down by Rikae.
- So no hunter-kill taking place means she was not hunting any of the four wolves.

So... if she hunted Inzil or Boro (two that would have seen most likely by what happened yesterDay), then she failed aka. the one she hunted is not a wolf.

Now it is also quite possible - and maybe even probable - that being the crafty player she was, she was not hunting any of those she suspected aloud.

Whatever the case in regards to the former, it looks fairly certain she tried to make herself look like a hunter (if she thought enough many would have gotten that Looney Tunes hint). So she was luring the wolves to try her (in case the wolves were not in her suspicions so that they dared to try it).

But that would then also mean she was comfortable with her hunting-pick, or just plain taking risks. And we'll probably never know whom she picked.

*AArrggh*

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The owl of Minerva flies after dusk... It's always easy to be wise on hindsight.

If I hadn't come online late and been busy writing my own voting post while the Bom-votes piled up, you can bet I'd have said as much yesterEve. But of course you have only my word for that, so yeah, well.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

On another issue, why is it that I suggested lynching Bom a find (Pom) or a good find (Pitch)?

Because it does make a difference whether Shasta started the whole thing by himself or took the lead from you, doesn't it? Pom says it better than I can.

[Pomegranate]

Lommy: I raised a point against Nog exactly once. I started my second day by pointing this one out.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Now, as everyone kept saying yesterNight (can you put it like that?) Shasta was the one to start the actual bandwaggon against Bom, after suspecting around. However, it's worth noticing that he wasn't the first one to suggest it, even though he was the first to actually give his vote to Bom. First one was Nogrod.

(#113)

During his post he actually kind of talked himself out of it, but somehow it seemed more that he was giving the bait and hoping someone would go with it. And when Shasta did decide that he wants Bom lynched, Nogrod started to show his uncertainty, but then decided to go for Bom when there was a lot of people after him. His vote was the one which raised Bom’s votes higher than Lommy’s.

Continuing in a bit, this was the most striking thing for me, now hunting for more.

x/ed with everyone after Nerwen's #160

After he reacted, I continued pursuing:

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Nog, it's not a secret, but somehow Shasta managed to get all the "glory" of the lynch even though you were the one who started more or less seriously thinking about the choice. So it was worth mentioning, when going through the people who were driving Bom's lynch. You planted the idea, then let someone else grab it and drive it forward while you were hiding more in the background.

And after Legate (I think) stood for Nog, I said:

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Though Nogrod kept saying he's semi-serious, instead of just ranting around. And isn't that exactly what baiting is (at least that's how it would sound to me, unless you use it with slightly different definition) - not a serious wish to lynch someone (I wouldn't call Shasta's actions baiting) but some kind of reminder, "hey, you know, then there's this one... anyone? Feel like continuing this discussion?"

This was all about that one post that had raised my suspicion. So I did indeed continue it for a while. It is not seen here, but I kept pursuing Legate at the same time. After this I left. I ended up deciding Legate was more suspicious, because his actions were suspicious during the whole first day, whereas Nogrod's were suspicious during that one post, and I thought he answered to well. Before this time Legate had also jumped into the waggon suspecting Eonwe, who in my eyes acted somewhat suspiciously, but not enough to gain a vote, and besides I didn't like the pile of suspicion he had already gained by that one post.

x/ed with everyone after my last

[Pomegranate]

My opinion on a double-lynch is, like earlier in the game it was, that it's scary, and has a very easy potential for the wolves to play with it. Why I was talking about it earlier (to Pitch, mainly, I assume Shasta got my point in my last message) was that I assumed we'd be dead anyway today if we happened to lynch an innocent alone - hence I thought it would be of more use than danger to think about a double-lynch. However, as I said, now that there is a relatively big chance that the acolyte is on our side, I don't think it's a good idea to attempt such today.

[Pomegranate]

Oh, and I keep forgetting I said I'd answer to Inzil, though I don't actually know if there's anything to answer for. It was genuine bad feeling about pursuing someone innocent for three Days, I guess there's nothing more to say.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

(to Pitch, mainly, I assume Shasta got my point in my last message)

Noted; my post crossed with your reply to Shasta.