TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Ok, maybe "Fails miserably" is bit strong, and maybe I overreacted.

"Stick it all together" is referring to his post. I thought I'd explained quite clearly what I meant by that that ( ), but basically I meant the fact that he tries to give two completely unrelated angles about why to lynch him. The self-vote and then suspicious behaviour too. Basically the rest of what I said (and what you're saying in the rest of your post).

Ok, gotcha now.

The "lynch Bom because there aren't other people I'm comfortable with voting for today" angle

And the...

"Lynch Bom because he's acting suspiciously/Bom-ish" angle.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Ok, gotcha now.

The "lynch Bom because there aren't other people I'm comfortable with voting for today" angle

And the...

"Lynch Bom because he's acting suspiciously/Bom-ish" angle.

I meant the "lynch Bom because he self-voted and we just spent ages ranting over self-votes and now he's done it" angle

and the suspicious angle.

[Thinlómien]

I'm going to sleep. I'll be back before the DL to read, post a little and vote. When you vote, please consider what I said about G55. She's made already two moves no innocent would make. Good night and see you!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Based on the last posts and things, the Wolves are Zil, Steve, then possibly somebody else - either Boro (? there are times when he is still acting too "cool and composed") or then some hidden Wolves, like Nog or Pitch or... Also still thinking about G55 (she did not post much toDay, right? Would like to hear more).

Now a list.

Evil:

Steve - what I said earlier.

Zil - I concur with Lommy's "cobbler" note. That's basically the feeling I get from the very beginning. He does not behave logically. He's not the only one, Boro suffered from the same syndrome at least yesterDay very strongly. However, lately some of his posts...

THIS has really evil tone to it:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I see Legate has come out against Eönwë now, and Greenie has responded by voting for him.

If you open a post by such a sentence, I can't imagine more aggressive way of pointing somebody out and yelling at the village: "Lynch'em all!!!"

I don't believe in cobblers, and Zil might very well get my vote toDay.

G55 - Lommy sums her up nicely, though my suspicion against her is the other way around: the two "what innocent won't do" things don't seem that much of a issue to me, maybe the former a bit more, but her voting and some things noted earlier in her posting worry me more. I want to see more from her, though.

(slowly getting to orange-ish zone, I need to reevaluate G55 because maybe she belongs here too, but maybe not)

Lommy - still not 100% sure. Funny idea occured to me with this Boro thing, in case the two of them were Wolves, Lommy might be just bringing attention to him back when it has slightly dropped, when she feels safer to point that out. You know, sort of this thing like "my packmate is most likely not getting lynched today, I will accuse him a bit so that later, when one of us is lynched, people say 'hey but she was the only one who accused him on that Day when nobody else did, she wouldn't do that...'" But my suspicion against her is basically of this sort, I don't have any "hard" evidence.

Boro - likewise. There is still some of his "smoothness" in him, for example like this:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Wait a second, isn't making stronger suspicions/accusations a good thing? If nothing else it will hopefully get Nog to answer some things about his vote and late-posting yesterday. I've had the impression Nog's playing carefully so far (not sure if I'd call it sneaky, but sneaky/careful are virtually the same in meaning).

That sounds sort of, how to say it, well, still too "polished" for Boro. More in the "excuse me, gentlemen, my humblest opinion is that your coat might have a bit of stain on it" style instead of "you filthy brat of Morgoth, look how messy you are!"

And Lommy has a point that he shouldn't be left off the hook so easily, but he's better than yesterDay still, and some of his ideas and thoughts he says don't sound Wolvish! (mental note to self) Like this, in the very same post:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Saying Bom is being mysterious/not giving anything away/not providing helpful input is like saying the sky is blue. It's not like anyone needs to go back through Bom's posts to confirm/deny reasons for voting him. Bom's playing randomly and playing like Bom.

You can't on one hand lynch someone because you're not comfortable with the other possibilities and here is Bom playing like Bom. Yet on the other hand go through a post-by-post explanation and keep tacking on the suspicions to justify the vote. To do so is just overkill. Surprise, surprise, Bom said something controversial/suspicious/crazy/random.

Which is a good point and also a good point against Nog.

The orange zone switches gradually into grey...

Pitch - UNDER. THE. BLOODY. RADAR.

Nogrod - some points raised about him by other people (Steve and now Boro sort of in reevaluating Steve's points) make me wary, but then again, there's a lot in his behavior which seems okay. I'm not sure about his accusation of G55 and Steve, not saying that it's fabricated, but... yeah, in fact, maybe that's what I thought it might be. More like if even one of them might not be his friend and it'd be all orchestrated or somesuch.

Greenie - I have little clue about her, as often, she might be evil, but she does not give any especially evil vibes straightaway.

Lottie - where is she?

Almost-white-ish-zone:

Sally. Where is she?

Pomegranate - reasonable, sensible (mostly), no problem.

Shasta - where is he?

The zones are all very, very, very orientational. Many people are either-or-this-or-that, so it is no set order or anything. Very rough division.

EDIT: x-ed with Steve and Nog

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Sally. Where is she?

Shasta - where is he?

The DL is horrible for us, alas, or at least for me. It's the time I need to be leaving for work, and since I normally am just getting home around now (well, an hour before when I'm lucky, but there's housework to do when I get home, and today there are strange people in my kitchen looking at my appliances), attempting to do all my Werewolfing in two or three short hours isn't going to lead to successful Sallying. I'm sorry (no, really, I am) that my performance is disappointing.

(How is Sallying a verb but Werewolfing isn't?!)

Anyway, I'm here, and attempting to read through things, though I will admit that I'm having trouble keeping up. I'm hoping that, in a lovely twist, my delicious beverage will help with that rather than dulling my senses as one would expect.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

Well, Legate, what do you think?
That I can write posts in a blink?
And with these weird verbs
I may light some herbs
Or maybe I'll just have a drink


EDIT: x'd since the post I quoted

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Well, Legate, what do you think?
That I can write posts in a blink?
And with this weird vocab
I may require rehab
Or maybe I'll just have a drink

But Sally, what are you doing?
Together some words in rhyme gluing
When argue in full
And your own weight pull
Discussing's what you should be doing.

Why waste your time writing rhymes
'Stead of punishing those for their crimes
That creep up at night
On the good place a blight
Like the creature gollum who climbs?

[Nogrod]

The bedtime approaches.

I'll make a list of sorts before I go, but meanwhile I'd wish to hear from Eönwë and Boro to tell us which is their situation: the thoughtless overconfidence of a hindsight, or wolvery?

If you know someone is (or was) innocent, you can say someone who went through all possibilities with him was doing an "overkill" (someone used that term I think). But when you don't know the alignment beforehand, that's exactly what you have to do, check all the possibilities, unless you are a wolf when you of course have no need to do it.


Heh, I know I said this already, but as I have a feeling - well, I think I can say I know - many people skip long posts, I decided to make a short one stating one of my main points against that silly speculation. (read more from #212)


X'd with a few

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

If you remember, I was only one vote behind at the time, so I couldn't afford to choose anyone other than Lommy or Bom.

Really? There's always chance, and many other people to vote. Also, you might have waited. For that matter, I just recalled that there was this weird thing with you saying about hour and ten minutes (or something) before DL "I need to vote in half an hour" and then you voted in about 50 minutes from then when it seemed that the Bomwaggon was rolling. Yes, you wanted to save yourself, but this was rather calculated. Care to say something about that?

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Well, Legate, what do you think?
That I can write posts in a blink?
And with these weird verbs
I may light some herbs
Or maybe I'll just have a drink

Well, at least you are here! (not going to rhyme at this hour...)

EDIT: x-ed with another nicely rhyming person, who however is not in my opinion in the position to say so either...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Really? There's always chance, and many other people to vote. Also, you might have waited. For that matter, I just recalled that there was this weird thing with you saying about hour and ten minutes (or something) before DL "I need to vote in half an hour" and then you voted in about 50 minutes from then when it seemed that the Bomwaggon was rolling. Yes, you wanted to save yourself, but this was rather calculated. Care to say something about that?

Yeah, I misjudged. I thought my lesson was cancelled, but it turned out I had one, and then I just about managed to get in my vote in the gap between that and the next one.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Based on the last posts and things, the Wolves are Zil, Steve, then possibly somebody else - either Boro (? there are times when he is still acting too "cool and composed") or then some hidden Wolves, like Nog or Pitch or... Also still thinking about G55 (she did not post much toDay, right? Would like to hear more).

Hmm, Legate. Having me, Steve, and Nog in the same pack would indicate some pretty daring wolf-on-wolf, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Zil - I concur with Lommy's "cobbler" note. That's basically the feeling I get from the very beginning. He does not behave logically. He's not the only one, Boro suffered from the same syndrome at least yesterDay very strongly. However, lately some of his posts...

THIS has really evil tone to it:



If you open a post by such a sentence, I can't imagine more aggressive way of pointing somebody out and yelling at the village: "Lynch'em all!!!"

That's what you're using to justify suspecting me? That's a real reach, my friend, even if it is me saying so. I was beginning to relax about you, too.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Lommy - still not 100% sure. Funny idea occured to me with this Boro thing, in case the two of them were Wolves, Lommy might be just bringing attention to him back when it has slightly dropped, when she feels safer to point that out. You know, sort of this thing like "my packmate is most likely not getting lynched today, I will accuse him a bit so that later, when one of us is lynched, people say 'hey but she was the only one who accused him on that Day when nobody else did, she wouldn't do that...'" But my suspicion against her is basically of this sort, I don't have any "hard" evidence.

Yet you apparently trust Lommy enough to concur with her about me.

Unless something changes, I could well vote Legate toDay. I still am wary of Steve though. And now, to a lesser extent, Lommy.

x/d with Steve and Legate

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Hmm, Legate. Having me, Steve, and Nog in the same pack would indicate some pretty daring wolf-on-wolf, wouldn't it?

That would actually be hilarious if it were the case.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pitch

Boro - of course it's not remotely like a seer lynch, and the outcome of lynching Bom wasn't any worse than any D1 where we don't catch a wolf. But after Lommy, Legate and Nog had gone to some length exhorting us all to make meaningful and accountable votes, I find it, shall we say ironic or hypocritical?, that all three of them ended up making a vote of which Legate said himself that it wouldn't tell us anything. (I'm willing to excuse Lommy, as she was under threat of lynch herself and voting to save herself, but Legate and Nog not so much.)

That explanation looks fine to me. I didn't like the scolding/shame on all of you tone, but I see your point on the hypocrisy of voting Bom based on the no random-votes business.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Boro - likewise. There is still some of his "smoothness" in him, for example like this:

That sounds sort of, how to say it, well, still too "polished" for Boro. More in the "excuse me, gentlemen, my humblest opinion is that your coat might have a bit of stain on it" style instead of "you filthy brat of Morgoth, look how messy you are!"

I'm so not following the distinctions you're making "nicer"-me and "abrasive"-me. I could see it yesterday, because I was too lazy to argue with anyone. I mean, I like being blunt and not afraid to call bull-pucky on anyone, but I'd also like to hope I'm not that much of a pompous douche. If I am, seriously guys, just backhand me or stuff a dirty sock down my throat. It's nothing you need to explain now, I'm just baffled where this idea I'm Mr. Grumpypants is coming from.

The above quote from Legate, was a reaction to me saying:

Wait a second, isn't making stronger suspicions/accusations a good thing? If nothing else it will hopefully get Nog to answer some things about his vote and late-posting yesterday. I've had the impression Nog's playing carefully so far (not sure if I'd call it sneaky, but sneaky/careful are virtually the same in meaning).

Not seeing what's "polished" about this...my explanation I'd call Nog playing "carefully", but not "sneaky"? I had noted Nog's play yesterday was careful, but I can see reasons an innocent Nog would play carefully. Eonwe used sneaky, and to me they mean essentially the same thing. But sneaky carries more negative baggage, and I was agreeing by using sneaky Eonwe was laying on serious suspicion.

Or do you mean polished in my reaction to you and Greenie going after Eonwe for his rather sudden and serious Nogrod suspicion? How harsh do I really have to be there? I'm not going to shout "what in the Morgoth are you two doing!!?" I was trying to get everyone, before taking sides to just let it play out. That is, Eonwe had made a strongly-worded case against Nog, I saw reasoning behind some of his points, and wanted to see how Nog responded. If and when he responded, I then wanted to see what Eonwe would do. Really, do I have to be anal just to say "Wait a second, let's see how this plays out."

From what I've seen out of it, blah...I'm even more conflicted about Nogrod now. There are the parts where he's defending himself and the reasoning/explanation is sound, and I can get genuine frustration at having to repeat his explanation. Like here, when he's actually defending himself, it's good:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Yes, I was mad at Bom's self-vote, especially after all the rant there had been about the signifigance of making a reasoned vote.

Yes, I entertained the idea and was unsure about what to do; whether to stick with the principle (those who do not play should be lynched so that people would know it happens and thus would not do it, or stayed out of games they have no intention to play) or whether there was chances to hit a wolf.

Yes, I did more or less talk myself out of it even if I wasn't sure on how strong grounds the suspicions I had on some people were.

Yes, after Shasta started pressing with it - and it kind of opened out as a real possibility when some others also voiced their possible interest in doing it - I started rethinking it as a real option. I mean it's stupid to vote for a non-player if you're the only one to do that.

But then you forget what I aready told earlier - and you can check it if you wish.

I wished to have a discussion as to whom to vote, in the end there, like 15 minutes before the DL, got a phone-call from my colleague, and when it was done, like 10 minutes to the DL, people had already started voting for Bom and there was no reasonable scenario left but to join (no ties and thus double lynches). Picking up enough votes to lynch someone else at that moment was basically impossible.

I'm sensing the honesty in his explanation about his vote yesterday, as well as the frustration from having to repeat it several times today. But the parts where he's not defending his actions, are shouting out wolf...they look bad. Post 199 looks real bad:

G55 starts the Day with a full-frontal attack on me, which attack I find manufactured to say it nicely.

Eönwë enters the scene later with a full-frontal attack on me, which attack I have hard times calling even manufactured.

Now a bit more impatient soul might think you guys have decided last Night to go after me toDay and get me lynched, maybe making a deal on the issues each one would write as their own "cases" during the Night.

So, Eonwe and G55 start out with cases against you, really the "impatient soul" paragraph is unecessary. I mean you must be calling yourself an "impatient soul," because you yourself are considering some convoluted wolf-night-scheme to come after you today. Oh right, only an impatient soul would consider that option...that very option that you just threw out as an option, but you of course don't think is a viable scenario. Then next paragraph, somehow is just a further explanation of how it's just oh so tempting to believe both Eonwe and G55 night-plotted against you:

But there are four wolves and I must say I'm totally confused if your mates wouldn't then have told you two to act a bit more wisely as that looks just terrible. So I'm tempted to look at these two as two separate bursts coming from their own motivations, even if I must say the temptation to look them as a wolf-duo trying their best (which isn't a lot, sorry) is compelling.

So this very scenario of a wolf-duo between G55 and Eonwe, which you seem to be saying is unlikely (?) you just spent two paragraphs saying "I don't think this is likely, only an impatient soul would think that's the case, but it's such a tempting option...yes...oh it's tempting to believe...I'm trying to resist believing it...but it's tempting." Now tell me that does NOT look like an "I don't care if either of these two are lynched as long as it's not me?" post.

I can see G55 making the attack half as a self-defence, but it is still quite over the top (and could be either). Steve I have harder time of figuring out why, unless it was decided already earlier that should be done. I mean unless that was not pre-planned, then I must have hit a point somewhere and hit it too well.

Oh right the concluding paragraph again, bringing up that oh so tempting "G55-Eonwe wolf-duo pre-planned go after Nogrod"

Then in the next defensive post (212) where he gave the explanation to his actions. In response to me, there are parts that follow this pattern of looking out right "let me throw out junk accusations to see if any of them will stick:

But then you Boro seem to fall into the fallacy of hindsight or that of wolvery (both meaning "knowing things"). You can choose which one...

Choose which one? I suppose by that if I choose the G55 and Eonwe in a "full-frontal assault" against Nog than you'll be giving me the same treatment as them? Some elaborate, must be a pre-planned wolf plot scheme, that you don't want to believe is a reasonable option, but you'll argue that it is reasonable and tempting?

I mean you who complain about Bom's lynch seem to forget that he could have been a wolf. Or you knew already he wasn't and then as wolves rant on us others who didn't know from supposed "moral-highground". *coughPitchieCough*

This is perhaps the worst of them all. At that point in the post, I thought to myself "wow, you're going to throw the kitchen sink too, Nog?"

Oh my. I'm not sure if this is enough for me to want to cast a vote for Nog, because his defense behind his actions yesterday look good. And I do recall an innocent Nog being just as "paranoid/everyone is conspiring against me," but really these half-hearted accusations against anyone saying something against him looks bad. It just looks like "I'm going to sling every kind of mud I have up my sleeve at anyone stating suspicion against me and see which mud sticks."

Edit: crossed with everyone since Pom's vote for Legate...woah...looks like something major happened.

Edit 2: and seer revelation...that would explain it.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Excuse me, but I've played in like twenty to forty or maybe even more WW games and as far as I recall, upon revealing, the Seer most often revealed ALL his dreams.

But...but in this case, that would be stupid. Sorry, but it would. Assuming Steve gives us the name of Nogwolf toDay, the Ranger protects him toNight. Then he gives us the names of his other two dreams toMorrow. Assuming Steve tells all toDay, the Ranger has to choose which to protect, Steve or the ordo, and may get it wrong and cost us a known innocent a Night early.

Also, I trust the reveal enough to go ahead with a Nog-lynch, so:

++Nog