Did Gandalf have a Plan "B"?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

Actually I'm not sure why they didn't do this in the first place. They could have sent orome into mordor and forced Sauron into submission. It's not like the battle would last for long, like 5 second and Sauron would be crying for daddy morgoth. xD

I think there are two reasons why not. I think there is a strong implication throughout the books that if an individual of a similar status overthrew Sauron they would inevitably become a tyrant in his place no matter how benevolent the intentions they might start out with. Gandalf and Galadriel both say this when they have the opportunity of taking the ring and we have the evidence of Saruman's behaviour to see that their fears were not groundless.

There is also the sense that it is time for the younger children, Men (and by extension Hobbits as essential a sub-group) governed their own affairs and solve their own problems. It is the transition point effectively out of mythology into the modern world. The "supernatural" races are going away or diminishing, fading. Men albeit with an elvish strain are taking control. Though the king is restored he is devolving power for example to the hobbits (thought I always thought it a tad impractical if men really couldn't even pass through the Shire especially if they were opening uo Fornost Erain). Think of Gandalf telling the hobbits that sorting out the problems in the Shire was what they had been trained for.

[Puddleglum]

The concern about becoming another tyrant dealt with someone overthrowing Sauron "by use of the Ring". The Valar could have sailed in (as they did in the War of Wrath) and done the deed without that danger - hasd they chosen to.

Your second reason, Mithalwen, comes closer to explaining it, I think - but is still only a part of it. Christopher Tolkien comments in Unfinished Tales, in the essay on the Istari, (and, I believe more is in HoME) about the Valar rethinking their ancient decision to try and shield the Eldar by their main force and glory (through the invitation to Valinor, primarily) and their conclusion that such was, in the end, an error - not in accordance with the purpose of Eru and not for the ultimate best of the Eruhini (The Elves and Men).

We could speculate about why such might have been the case - that the Elves first and later men (as the "Dominion of Men" came and the Elves faded) should make their own ways in the world not under wings of the Valar who would smack down any threat or evil that might threaten the children.

But the essay makes it clear that this consideration was behind the prohibition against Gandalf and the others trying the master other peoples through raw displays of power and glory. So it seems pretty plain that the same prohibition would apply against Orome (or Tulkas or even Eonwe) sailing in at the head a vast army of Maia to rescue the Elves and Men from Sauron's shadow.

So, I would say your second reason is completely true - as far as it goes. Only, I think the truth includes what you said and goes a bit further.

[Lollipop010900]

When Gandalf asked Frodo to take the ring to Rivendell, i think he knew that Frodo would do as he was asked. He had studied hobbits for many years and knew that it would be against a hobbits nature, especially one which had grown up with Bilbo, not to accept fate. And anyway, what would you have done if a wizard who would be a VERY bad enemy, came up to you and told you that yyou could save the world if you did what you were told, would you say no? I think everyone in the Fellowship, with the exception of Aragorn, was scared of having Gandalf as an enemy and that is why they all listened to his advice.

[Rhod the Red]

I also wonder if The Valar had a Plan B if all the Istari had failed in their mission.

At worst they could have applied the Numenor solution; destroy Middle-earth.

Obliviously that would have been regarded as the 'nuclear option' of a last resort.

I'm sure they were watching closely, noticing at least 2 Istari were still on duty(Gandalf & Radagast) doing their job.

[Puddleglum]

Tolkien, in a 1954 letter spoke about the Istari and about Gandalf's sacrifice on the bridge and his being sent back, enhanced. Tolkien said that they (incl Galdalf)

"had been sent by a mere prudent plan of the Valar; but the Authority {ie. Eru, the One} had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

That is an interesting comment in that it shows Tolkien considered that the Istari (as sent by the Valar) **DID** fail. Gandalf was the last remaining solid and energetic to the Valar's intents (Radagast having "become enamoured of the many beasts and birds in M.E.", Unfinished Tales) and he had just been killed.

At this point The One stepped in and said, in effect, "You Valar had a good idea, but even *you* need to rely on ME to provide for the succor of M.E." So, as He had (long before) taken up Aule's attempts to make peoples to enjoy Middle Earth, and given being to the Dwarves -- so he now took up the Valar's attempts to encourage and tutor the peoples of Middle Earth in their maturing and growth learned in the struggle against Sauron, and gave new power and profundity to the effort by sending Olorin back, enhanced, to "finish the task".

[Raynor]

At this point The One stepped in and said, in effect, "You Valar had a good idea, but even *you* need to rely on ME to provide for the succor of M.E."

Did the Valar really lack the means to actually help Middle-Earth more though? They sent a few of their lesser order, and in a severely weakened form, and their mission was even more restrictive in what they could or could not do.

I certainly believe that were the Valar to show in the full might of their hosts, they would have trashed Sauron and all of his armies. Or take a fraction of that; scratch that, send one Vala, one is enough to get the job done.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Did the Valar really lack the means to actually help Middle-Earth more though? They sent a few of their lesser order, and in a severely weakened form, and their mission was even more restrictive in what they could or could not do.

I certainly believe that were the Valar to show in the full might of their hosts, they would have trashed Sauron and all of his armies. Or take a fraction of that; scratch that, send one Vala, one is enough to get the job done.

Of course the Valar were capable of taking a more direct approach in dealing with Sauron. As Tolkien said in Letters #156 though, they wanted to avoid that.

Why [the Istari] should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world of this fable. At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane, and so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just to do the job for them.

The Children of Ilúvatar in Middle-earth were able on their own to deal with Sauron. They did it with the Last Alliance. Only a foolish decision to keep the Ring marred that victory over Sauron, which could and should have been final.
The Valar judged that all they really needed was some guidance.

Also, as said in the essay The Istari in UT, the Valar wanted to avoid mistakes they had made in the past.

And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed.

Victory over Morgoth had eventually been achieved, but at a high price, and the Valar did not want to go that route a second time.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Did the Valar really lack the means to actually help Middle-Earth more though? ... send one Vala, one is enough to get the job done.

I don't think the question is whether they could have, on their own, removed Sauron - rather the question is whether that would have been the best thing for Men (and others of Eru's creation).

In the same 1954 letter, Tolkien was explicit in their intent.

"Why they {the Istari} should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world in this fable.
At this point in ... history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just to do the job for them."

In Unfinished Tales (essay on The Istari) Tolkien writes,

"And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed."

Putting these together, I would say the idea is that children (Elves and Men *are*, after all, the Eruhini - the Children of Eru) eventually need to learn to stand on their own two feet - even if that means stumbling and bruising themselves in the process of learning to walk.

However, the Children were not simply "thrown in the deep end to sink or swim on their own".

The Istari essay notes that "Manwe, even after the Downfall of Numenor ... was still not a mere observer. It is clearly from Valinor that the emissaries came who were called the Istari." and "To the defeat of Morgoth (Manwe) sent his hearald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more so? Olorin was his name."

The Valar had a plan, a "mere prudent plan" (as Tolkien put it) to aid the Children, while still letting them learn to walk. Parents know how this is often a difficult balancing act in raising of kids - no less so here.

The plan, prudent as it was, failed with the sacrifice of Gandalf on the bridge. And at that point the Father (Illuvatar, after all, means "All Father") stepped in and amended the plan so that it would succeed. Sauron WAS overthrown, and (primarily) by the resistance of and efforts *OF* the Children.

Remember what Gandalf (Olorin) said to the Hobbits (RoTK, "Homeward Bound"

"You must settle its (your) affairs yourselves; this is what you have been trained for. Do you not yet understand?"

There is far more to life and history than simply getting to the end, or surviving. Growth & Wisdom - these come only with struggle. And they often come EVEN to those who lose their physical lives in the process. Sauron did great harm, but he was still (in the end) nothing more than a tool in Eru's hands in accomplishing Eru's purposes in Eru's creation. Just a tool - one who was simply "Used" (how galling it might be for the wilted spirit of Sauron, gnawing itself in the wastes, to realize, in all of its posturing, in spite of having "used" so many others, *IT* was the one being, simply, "used".)
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[ed. Ummm, Simultaneous posting - gotta love it <g>]