Did Gandalf have a Plan "B"?

[Raynor]

At this point The One stepped in and said, in effect, "You Valar had a good idea, but even *you* need to rely on ME to provide for the succor of M.E."

Did the Valar really lack the means to actually help Middle-Earth more though? They sent a few of their lesser order, and in a severely weakened form, and their mission was even more restrictive in what they could or could not do.

I certainly believe that were the Valar to show in the full might of their hosts, they would have trashed Sauron and all of his armies. Or take a fraction of that; scratch that, send one Vala, one is enough to get the job done.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Did the Valar really lack the means to actually help Middle-Earth more though? They sent a few of their lesser order, and in a severely weakened form, and their mission was even more restrictive in what they could or could not do.

I certainly believe that were the Valar to show in the full might of their hosts, they would have trashed Sauron and all of his armies. Or take a fraction of that; scratch that, send one Vala, one is enough to get the job done.

Of course the Valar were capable of taking a more direct approach in dealing with Sauron. As Tolkien said in Letters #156 though, they wanted to avoid that.

Why [the Istari] should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world of this fable. At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane, and so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just to do the job for them.

The Children of Ilúvatar in Middle-earth were able on their own to deal with Sauron. They did it with the Last Alliance. Only a foolish decision to keep the Ring marred that victory over Sauron, which could and should have been final.
The Valar judged that all they really needed was some guidance.

Also, as said in the essay The Istari in UT, the Valar wanted to avoid mistakes they had made in the past.

And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed.

Victory over Morgoth had eventually been achieved, but at a high price, and the Valar did not want to go that route a second time.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Did the Valar really lack the means to actually help Middle-Earth more though? ... send one Vala, one is enough to get the job done.

I don't think the question is whether they could have, on their own, removed Sauron - rather the question is whether that would have been the best thing for Men (and others of Eru's creation).

In the same 1954 letter, Tolkien was explicit in their intent.

"Why they {the Istari} should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world in this fable.
At this point in ... history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just to do the job for them."

In Unfinished Tales (essay on The Istari) Tolkien writes,

"And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed."

Putting these together, I would say the idea is that children (Elves and Men *are*, after all, the Eruhini - the Children of Eru) eventually need to learn to stand on their own two feet - even if that means stumbling and bruising themselves in the process of learning to walk.

However, the Children were not simply "thrown in the deep end to sink or swim on their own".

The Istari essay notes that "Manwe, even after the Downfall of Numenor ... was still not a mere observer. It is clearly from Valinor that the emissaries came who were called the Istari." and "To the defeat of Morgoth (Manwe) sent his hearald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more so? Olorin was his name."

The Valar had a plan, a "mere prudent plan" (as Tolkien put it) to aid the Children, while still letting them learn to walk. Parents know how this is often a difficult balancing act in raising of kids - no less so here.

The plan, prudent as it was, failed with the sacrifice of Gandalf on the bridge. And at that point the Father (Illuvatar, after all, means "All Father") stepped in and amended the plan so that it would succeed. Sauron WAS overthrown, and (primarily) by the resistance of and efforts *OF* the Children.

Remember what Gandalf (Olorin) said to the Hobbits (RoTK, "Homeward Bound"

"You must settle its (your) affairs yourselves; this is what you have been trained for. Do you not yet understand?"

There is far more to life and history than simply getting to the end, or surviving. Growth & Wisdom - these come only with struggle. And they often come EVEN to those who lose their physical lives in the process. Sauron did great harm, but he was still (in the end) nothing more than a tool in Eru's hands in accomplishing Eru's purposes in Eru's creation. Just a tool - one who was simply "Used" (how galling it might be for the wilted spirit of Sauron, gnawing itself in the wastes, to realize, in all of its posturing, in spite of having "used" so many others, *IT* was the one being, simply, "used".)
----

[ed. Ummm, Simultaneous posting - gotta love it <g>]

[The Sixth Wizard]

I read an interesting essay recently which partly concerned Glorfindel and the trouble Tolkien had with reconciling that character in its Third Age and First Age iterations. Rather than rename the old character, he changed the rules of the game slightly by allowing him to return to Middle Earth. This reflects a trend by Tolkien of treating his own works, even its mistakes, as real "historical" facts as far as possible.

With that in mind, we have the dilemma in Tolkien's world arising. The world has a big bad enemy, but also much bigger good-guy gods who could roflstomp Sauron whenever they wanted to. I think Tolkien rationalised this problem by saying, generally, that power corrupts, and therefore a pre-emptive military strike (heh) would be detrimental to Middle Earth rather than helpful in the long run.

Observe what happens when the Valar overthrow Morgoth by force, and then give divine gifts to the Children of Iluvatar.

Initially (in the War of Wrath), the earth undergoes great and terrible upheavals. Beautiful things are marred and never remade. Many die and many choose to depart Middle Earth. Almost all of Beleriand is drowned. Really only the gravest of evils justify victory at such costs.

Later, when the Men of Numenor are given divine gifts of long life and technological superiority, they are slowly corrupted and fall from grace. This shows that top-down solutions will mar more than they aid the Eruhini. Even though Sauron was the one to finally take advantage of Numenor's power, it was already becoming militaristic, greedy and corrupt without his influence.

A final demonstration is the example of the Istari. Saruman and Gandalf choose different roles to play - Gandalf wanders and advises while Saruman studies the arts of the enemy and builds up power. Predictably, Saruman's more direct influence upon Middle Earth results in his corruption, and near disaster for Men.

The role of the Valar in an already fragile world is to empower, rather than save, Eru's children. Already mentioned is the wind which saves Minas Tirith, but what about those tiny moments of hope which Elbereth gives to Frodo? Or the inexplicable ease with which Sam lifts Frodo up the mountain? Tom Bombadil, the Eagles, or any other stroke of luck which happens to save the day? It's like running along behind your children when they start to ride a bike. If Eru's children feel like they can fight for good by themselves in Middle Earth, they are much more likely to do so.

[Raynor]

Putting these together, I would say the idea is that children (Elves and Men *are*, after all, the Eruhini - the Children of Eru) eventually need to learn to stand on their own two feet - even if that means stumbling and bruising themselves in the process of learning to walk.

That is contradicted by the fact that the Valar did not let the Children do this on their own, they even sent some of their maiar, and even that failed. In fact, to help save the Children, Eru himself had to intervene and give a fallen hero new life and new power.

The Children of Ilúvatar in Middle-earth were able on their own to deal with Sauron. They did it with the Last Alliance. Only a foolish decision to keep the Ring marred that victory over Sauron, which could and should have been final.

Different times though; there were more elves at the time, and those with the blood of Numenor were more numerous and stronger. These would be able to deal with a mythical being such as Sauron, and all his magic. Sauron in LotR times, even if weakened, is still a mythical being, employing magic and forces that surpass M-E's ability to deal with him. Were it not for the ring getting destroyed, M-E would have fallen to Sauron, one way or the other. This is what normally would have happened, no wise in his tower could have plotted any other course around this, no matter how much M-E would have mobilized.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Different times though; there were more elves at the time, and those with the blood of Numenor were more numerous and stronger. These would be able to deal with a mythical being such as Sauron, and all his magic. Sauron in LotR times, even if weakened, is still a mythical being, employing magic and forces that surpass M-E's ability to deal with him. Were it not for the ring getting destroyed, M-E would have fallen to Sauron, one way or the other. This is what normally would have happened, no wise in his tower could have plotted any other course around this, no matter how much M-E would have mobilized.

My point was that it had already been proven that Sauron could be defeated without the Valar galloping to Middle-earth's rescue. Actually, in the Third Age, it could still have been done with the use of the One. Good thing Gandalf was there to warn against that.

Speaking of the One, how would that have been dealt with? Would it have been a good idea to have given it an opportunity to influence the Valinorean forces? To have taken a germ of evil back with them? Even if the One had been destroyed, might not it have had time to work some evil? If you pull on one string in the history of the War of the Ring, you risk the whole garment becoming unraveled.

As an addendum. The Balrog in Moria was obviously too great for the Dwarves to overcome, but we don't see Aulë coming to their aid.

[Zigûr]

I always got the impression that the Valar never forsook their appointed role as helpers and counsellors to the Children of Ilúvatar but that by the Third Age they wanted to try a more subtle approach both to avoid the kind of disastrous consequences more direct intervention had seemed to cause and to ensure that Men came into their inheritance by their own doing as much as possible. In the end it was cooperation between the Children of Ilúvatar in Middle-earth and an emissary of the Valar which defeated Sauron rather than the Valar taking matters too greatly into their own hands. What's more, this situation came about through the designs of Ilúvatar weaving all these compontents together. The difference to me seems to be that in the Third Age the Valar rendered assistance while letting the mysterious designs of Ilúvatar unfold of their own accord rather than, as they had done up until the end of the First Age, trying to force the events of history to conform to what they perceived as being the right course. Perhaps the Valar needed to learn a certain faith, and that not all eventualities could be planned for and controlled.
One thing I have always found very interesting about the Valar is their capacity to occasionally make bad decisions, however well-intentioned, and the way that their great compassion occasionally overwhelmed their better judgement.

[Raynor]

Actually, in the Third Age, it could still have been done with the use of the One.

I am afraid I disagree that Sauron could actually be defeated using the One.

My point was that it had already been proven that Sauron could be defeated without the Valar galloping to Middle-earth's rescue.

And the conditions changed, and it was obvious that Sauron would win now through sheer army might. Is there anything in the books contradicted what I said, or do you want me to source this claim, that in pure army terms Sauron would win, pretty much no matter what?

That is, Gandalf did his job so well that MORTAL hands were *ABLE* to defeat the Witch King.
...
Sauron was neutralized *primarily* through the actions and choices of Men, Elves, Dwarves, Ents, Hobbits, etc.

I disagree. While the Men may have defeated the Witch-King on their own, Sauron was defeated by divine grace in my opinion. Were it not for the hobbits to be guided all up until the last moment, and were it not for the fortuituous destruction of the ring, then the Men will have perished, and M-E would have fallen.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I am afraid I disagree that Sauron could actually be defeated using the One.

Even though Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, and etc think he theoretically could be?

Originally Posted by Raynor

I disagree. While the Men may have defeated the Witch-King on their own, Sauron was defeated by divine grace in my opinion. Were it not for the hobbits to be guided all up until the last moment, and were it not for the fortuituous destruction of the ring, then the Men will have perished, and M-E would have fallen.

In LOTR, unlike The Sil, there is divine guidance everywhere. Was it not also divine guidance that Eowyn happened to be there at the right place in the right time to deal the death-blow to the WK? Is it not divine guidance that Merry was with her? He was with her because she, and none other, offered to take him with her. She didn't know he would save her life and the world.

The point is not that there was no guidance. The point is that the Ring was destroyed by the hands of mortals. Did the Valar or Eru take the Ring themselves and throw it Orodruin? No. They may have helped with a few "coincidences" here and there, but the work was done by others; in this instance - by Frodo, Sam, and Gollum in Sammath Naur, and by Aragorn and his army at the Morannon to distract Sauron's attention.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I disagree. While the Men may have defeated the Witch-King on their own, Sauron was defeated by divine grace in my opinion. Were it not for the hobbits to be guided all up until the last moment, and were it not for the fortuituous destruction of the ring, then the Men will have perished, and M-E would have fallen.

My statement was that Sauron was defeated ****primarily***** through the ***actions and choices of*** etc

• Frodo exerted himself mightily and was successful in getting the One to the place where it "could" be destroyed.
• Frodo's mercy (and Bilbo's before him) made it possible for Gollum to be in place (and with the drive to) take the ring so it "could" be destroyed.
• Gandalf's & Aragorn's decision to make themselves bait succeeded in distracting Sauron so he would focus his efforts OUTSIDE his land, reducing the search for the Ring INSIDE - which gave Frodo & Sam the chance to sneak the rest of the way in.
• Faramir's decision to let Frodo go in spite of his Father's wishes, and even to give him extra food, enabled the quest to continue and succeed.
• Sam's steadfastness led to Frodo's rescue from Cirith Ungol, and to him not being caught by Gollum before they could get to the mountain, and to their escaping from the Orcs at the Isenmouth.

Intervention by the divine - the changing of the winds at Pellenor, Gandalf's **advising** the captains after that battle, etc - don't take away from or diminish that it was actions of Mortals that **PRIMARILY** (I never said "wholly") led to Sauron's fall.

Even (if you want to consider it so) the question of how Gollum happened to fall into the cracks is addressed by Tolkien in a Letter (don't have the number with me here). The essence is that FRODO expended himself to get the Ring to Mt Doom. That it was only *THEN* that divine providence stepped in and helped finish the task.

The point is that this is a far cry from saying that the Valar (or The One) just "did the job for" the Eruhini.

Rather - Men, Elves, and others had to exert THEMselves, use THEIR intelligence and determination, expend THEIR "blood, sweat and tears" - all without ANY assurance (or even suggestion) that the divine would bail them out if they faltered.

It was only AFTER all of that - and, indeed, only **BECAUSE** of all that, that a final grace was bestowed that, as it were, put them over the top.

[Puddleglum]

Good post, Zigur.

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Putting these together, I would say the idea is that children (Elves and Men *are*, after all, the Eruhini - the Children of Eru) eventually need to learn to stand on their own two feet - even if that means stumbling and bruising themselves in the process of learning to walk.

Originally Posted by Raynor

That is contradicted by the fact that the Valar did not let the Children do this on their own, they even sent some of their maiar, and even that failed. In fact, to help save the Children, Eru himself had to intervene and give a fallen hero new life and new power.

Parents are not limited, in helping their children grow, to only the two extremes of:

• Total hands off, let them sink or swim on their own. <and>
• Put them on your shoulders and carry them around.

The plan of the Valar *in this instance* (and incorporated in Eru's intervention by returning Gandalf) was in this middle area:

"They were primarily sent (to) train, advise, instruct, and arouse those threatened by Sauron; but not just to the job for them."

Gandalf took a few discrete active steps, like defending the company from the Balrog, or opposing the Witch King's entry into Minas Tirith (though only for a few minutes) - but he didn't defeat Sauron in direct confrontation - or even the Witch King, for that matter. In fact ...

"so powerful was the whole train of HUMAN RESISTANCE, that he himself had kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between him and the WK actually occurs: the battle {and the WK's defeat} passed to other MORTAL hands."

That is, Gandalf did his job so well that MORTAL hands were *ABLE* to defeat the Witch King.

Which, of course, exemplifies the desire of every parent raising a child. They want their child to grow to the point they *CAN* stand on their own two feet. But they also know that this requires a balance or mix of training, encouragement, *Some* help, but also *Some* allowing them to fall and fail. It's not a science and their is no valid "formula".

Originally Posted by Zigûr

One thing I have always found very interesting about the Valar is their capacity to occasionally make bad decisions, however well-intentioned, and the way that their great compassion occasionally overwhelmed their better judgement.

Which brings up an interesting thought: that Eru is dealing with the Valar in a similar way as the Valar are dealing with the Eruhini. He allowed them to enter Ea to prepare it for and guide the Eruhini. But he is also training THEM in the art of (if you will) "Parenting".

The Eruhini are Eru's children, and he does intervene on occasion. But he is also allowing the Valar to try and fall and get up and learn and try again in their task as teachers and guardians (or foster parents?) of the Children.

The same is true of the defeat of Sauron. Gandalf organized and kindled such a resistance (from Rohan, Gondor, Lorien, Rivendell, and others - most crucially, the Shire in the form of Frodo and friends) that Sauron was neutralized *primarily* through the actions and choices of Men, Elves, Dwarves, Ents, Hobbits, etc. In short, by the actions of the non-divine beings of Middle Earth, rather than by the "the might and glory of the Valar (or Maiar) fully revealed"

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think that's quite right.

OTOH, I still like to think of the appearance of the Eagles at the Morannon as being Manwe's little signature in the corner of the painting...."You didn't REALLY think we weren't paying attention, Sauron?"