Did Gandalf have a Plan "B"?

[Lollipop010900]

When Gandalf asked Frodo to take the ring to Rivendell, i think he knew that Frodo would do as he was asked. He had studied hobbits for many years and knew that it would be against a hobbits nature, especially one which had grown up with Bilbo, not to accept fate. And anyway, what would you have done if a wizard who would be a VERY bad enemy, came up to you and told you that yyou could save the world if you did what you were told, would you say no? I think everyone in the Fellowship, with the exception of Aragorn, was scared of having Gandalf as an enemy and that is why they all listened to his advice.

[Rhod the Red]

I also wonder if The Valar had a Plan B if all the Istari had failed in their mission.

At worst they could have applied the Numenor solution; destroy Middle-earth.

Obliviously that would have been regarded as the 'nuclear option' of a last resort.

I'm sure they were watching closely, noticing at least 2 Istari were still on duty(Gandalf & Radagast) doing their job.

[Puddleglum]

Tolkien, in a 1954 letter spoke about the Istari and about Gandalf's sacrifice on the bridge and his being sent back, enhanced. Tolkien said that they (incl Galdalf)

"had been sent by a mere prudent plan of the Valar; but the Authority {ie. Eru, the One} had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

That is an interesting comment in that it shows Tolkien considered that the Istari (as sent by the Valar) **DID** fail. Gandalf was the last remaining solid and energetic to the Valar's intents (Radagast having "become enamoured of the many beasts and birds in M.E.", Unfinished Tales) and he had just been killed.

At this point The One stepped in and said, in effect, "You Valar had a good idea, but even *you* need to rely on ME to provide for the succor of M.E." So, as He had (long before) taken up Aule's attempts to make peoples to enjoy Middle Earth, and given being to the Dwarves -- so he now took up the Valar's attempts to encourage and tutor the peoples of Middle Earth in their maturing and growth learned in the struggle against Sauron, and gave new power and profundity to the effort by sending Olorin back, enhanced, to "finish the task".

[Raynor]

At this point The One stepped in and said, in effect, "You Valar had a good idea, but even *you* need to rely on ME to provide for the succor of M.E."

Did the Valar really lack the means to actually help Middle-Earth more though? They sent a few of their lesser order, and in a severely weakened form, and their mission was even more restrictive in what they could or could not do.

I certainly believe that were the Valar to show in the full might of their hosts, they would have trashed Sauron and all of his armies. Or take a fraction of that; scratch that, send one Vala, one is enough to get the job done.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Did the Valar really lack the means to actually help Middle-Earth more though? They sent a few of their lesser order, and in a severely weakened form, and their mission was even more restrictive in what they could or could not do.

I certainly believe that were the Valar to show in the full might of their hosts, they would have trashed Sauron and all of his armies. Or take a fraction of that; scratch that, send one Vala, one is enough to get the job done.

Of course the Valar were capable of taking a more direct approach in dealing with Sauron. As Tolkien said in Letters #156 though, they wanted to avoid that.

Why [the Istari] should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world of this fable. At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane, and so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just to do the job for them.

The Children of Ilúvatar in Middle-earth were able on their own to deal with Sauron. They did it with the Last Alliance. Only a foolish decision to keep the Ring marred that victory over Sauron, which could and should have been final.
The Valar judged that all they really needed was some guidance.

Also, as said in the essay The Istari in UT, the Valar wanted to avoid mistakes they had made in the past.

And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed.

Victory over Morgoth had eventually been achieved, but at a high price, and the Valar did not want to go that route a second time.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Did the Valar really lack the means to actually help Middle-Earth more though? ... send one Vala, one is enough to get the job done.

I don't think the question is whether they could have, on their own, removed Sauron - rather the question is whether that would have been the best thing for Men (and others of Eru's creation).

In the same 1954 letter, Tolkien was explicit in their intent.

"Why they {the Istari} should take such a form is bound up with the 'mythology' of the 'angelic' Powers of the world in this fable.
At this point in ... history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane so that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths; and not just to do the job for them."

In Unfinished Tales (essay on The Istari) Tolkien writes,

"And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed."

Putting these together, I would say the idea is that children (Elves and Men *are*, after all, the Eruhini - the Children of Eru) eventually need to learn to stand on their own two feet - even if that means stumbling and bruising themselves in the process of learning to walk.

However, the Children were not simply "thrown in the deep end to sink or swim on their own".

The Istari essay notes that "Manwe, even after the Downfall of Numenor ... was still not a mere observer. It is clearly from Valinor that the emissaries came who were called the Istari." and "To the defeat of Morgoth (Manwe) sent his hearald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more so? Olorin was his name."

The Valar had a plan, a "mere prudent plan" (as Tolkien put it) to aid the Children, while still letting them learn to walk. Parents know how this is often a difficult balancing act in raising of kids - no less so here.

The plan, prudent as it was, failed with the sacrifice of Gandalf on the bridge. And at that point the Father (Illuvatar, after all, means "All Father") stepped in and amended the plan so that it would succeed. Sauron WAS overthrown, and (primarily) by the resistance of and efforts *OF* the Children.

Remember what Gandalf (Olorin) said to the Hobbits (RoTK, "Homeward Bound"

"You must settle its (your) affairs yourselves; this is what you have been trained for. Do you not yet understand?"

There is far more to life and history than simply getting to the end, or surviving. Growth & Wisdom - these come only with struggle. And they often come EVEN to those who lose their physical lives in the process. Sauron did great harm, but he was still (in the end) nothing more than a tool in Eru's hands in accomplishing Eru's purposes in Eru's creation. Just a tool - one who was simply "Used" (how galling it might be for the wilted spirit of Sauron, gnawing itself in the wastes, to realize, in all of its posturing, in spite of having "used" so many others, *IT* was the one being, simply, "used".)
----

[ed. Ummm, Simultaneous posting - gotta love it <g>]

[The Sixth Wizard]

I read an interesting essay recently which partly concerned Glorfindel and the trouble Tolkien had with reconciling that character in its Third Age and First Age iterations. Rather than rename the old character, he changed the rules of the game slightly by allowing him to return to Middle Earth. This reflects a trend by Tolkien of treating his own works, even its mistakes, as real "historical" facts as far as possible.

With that in mind, we have the dilemma in Tolkien's world arising. The world has a big bad enemy, but also much bigger good-guy gods who could roflstomp Sauron whenever they wanted to. I think Tolkien rationalised this problem by saying, generally, that power corrupts, and therefore a pre-emptive military strike (heh) would be detrimental to Middle Earth rather than helpful in the long run.

Observe what happens when the Valar overthrow Morgoth by force, and then give divine gifts to the Children of Iluvatar.

Initially (in the War of Wrath), the earth undergoes great and terrible upheavals. Beautiful things are marred and never remade. Many die and many choose to depart Middle Earth. Almost all of Beleriand is drowned. Really only the gravest of evils justify victory at such costs.

Later, when the Men of Numenor are given divine gifts of long life and technological superiority, they are slowly corrupted and fall from grace. This shows that top-down solutions will mar more than they aid the Eruhini. Even though Sauron was the one to finally take advantage of Numenor's power, it was already becoming militaristic, greedy and corrupt without his influence.

A final demonstration is the example of the Istari. Saruman and Gandalf choose different roles to play - Gandalf wanders and advises while Saruman studies the arts of the enemy and builds up power. Predictably, Saruman's more direct influence upon Middle Earth results in his corruption, and near disaster for Men.

The role of the Valar in an already fragile world is to empower, rather than save, Eru's children. Already mentioned is the wind which saves Minas Tirith, but what about those tiny moments of hope which Elbereth gives to Frodo? Or the inexplicable ease with which Sam lifts Frodo up the mountain? Tom Bombadil, the Eagles, or any other stroke of luck which happens to save the day? It's like running along behind your children when they start to ride a bike. If Eru's children feel like they can fight for good by themselves in Middle Earth, they are much more likely to do so.

[Raynor]

Putting these together, I would say the idea is that children (Elves and Men *are*, after all, the Eruhini - the Children of Eru) eventually need to learn to stand on their own two feet - even if that means stumbling and bruising themselves in the process of learning to walk.

That is contradicted by the fact that the Valar did not let the Children do this on their own, they even sent some of their maiar, and even that failed. In fact, to help save the Children, Eru himself had to intervene and give a fallen hero new life and new power.

The Children of Ilúvatar in Middle-earth were able on their own to deal with Sauron. They did it with the Last Alliance. Only a foolish decision to keep the Ring marred that victory over Sauron, which could and should have been final.

Different times though; there were more elves at the time, and those with the blood of Numenor were more numerous and stronger. These would be able to deal with a mythical being such as Sauron, and all his magic. Sauron in LotR times, even if weakened, is still a mythical being, employing magic and forces that surpass M-E's ability to deal with him. Were it not for the ring getting destroyed, M-E would have fallen to Sauron, one way or the other. This is what normally would have happened, no wise in his tower could have plotted any other course around this, no matter how much M-E would have mobilized.